http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/msnbc-host-issues-apology-saying-hes-uncomfortable-calling-fallen-soldiers-heroes_645956.html

I don't care what party you follow or how you feel about fighting a war, but to dishonor a soldier is beyond disgusting.
The "lean forward" types seem to have a disdain for our troops.
They will make claims to support the Troops, but when push comes to shove, the ugly truth comes out.
Liberals can't sleep at night without blaming Fox news for the worlds problems and I can't even watch Fox b/c they are so slanted, but I have yet to ever hear anything like what came out of that pukes mouth about our Troops from anyone at Fox.

This goes beyond your party line.
This is not about a die hard thumper vs a liberal whack job and who can spin and lie more than the other.
This lowest form of human sh!t questioned the integrity of men and women that wake up every day of their lives trying to do it again the next day.
They are not there to see their kids graduate or watch baseball games.
They wish they were home b!tching about gas prices or complaining about the heat.
They dream of laying down at night next to the one they love and waking in the morning to go to work.
They can only sit back and think about what a grill out will be like that day.

They should not fire this piece of a sh!t, they should send him to a war zone for 3 years.
He should be forced to live with a military group, not some hotel and pick and choose what he covers.
He should be forced to follow a dead soldier home and be there when they inform the family of that heroes death.
He should be forced to witness the tragedy of seeing a young child live without their mom or dad.
He should be forced to then go back to that same unit and see the ones that survived deal with losing someone that they had spent the most intimate times of their lives to together.

Then he should be kicked out of this country!

http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

Murf, one man's hero is another man's villain. Liberals no more honor our fallen soldiers than you would fallen al queda terrorists.

This probably also explains why Obama threw Osama's Dr to the wolves.

By the way, when I say liberal, I am talking about the hardcore leftists who have taken over the term liberal, not anyone on this board who identify themselves as such.

I think he was referring primarily to the two bull$hit wars that Bush started - not WWI and WWII which is where the real heros were. Admitedly Bush was correct in going into Afghanistan but that turned into an ill run fiasco and became a bull$hit war like Iraq. He didn't buy Bush's bull$hit and anyone with an IQ over 50 wouldn't either.

not WWI and WWII which is where the real heros were.

LOL, so there were no real heroes in Afghan or Iraq.

Those wars were crap events esp. the Iraq war. The Afghan war could have been better if we had the right leader not the country bumpkin Bush.

Those wars exposed how poor we are at urban guerilla conflicts where they were kicking our a$$ with roadside bombs etc. Pure bull$hit. If I didn't know better I'd swear Mike Brown ran those conflicts. They were an embarassment to this country.

If we had been serious about Afghan we would have gone at it a lot harder and kept a single minded focus and do what it took to end it in a timely manner not drag it out in an embarassing manner like we did. Pure bull$hit plain and simple.

Tough to get behind those bull$hit wars no matter if you are a right wing extremist or whatever. It's sort of like you are the superbowl champs and you lose at home to the Browns 49-0 only worse than that.

Here's your sign.....

We are not tlaking about the WAR or if it has meaning or we should or should not be there.
We are talking about the REAL HUMANBEINGS CALLED SOLDIERS that have no choice but to go where they are told and what to do when they get there.

Just because the war might not be popular, does not erase the honor that these people deserve or the accomplishments they achieve by placing their lives in danger everyday so that people like you can b!tch and scream about the republicans and Fox news.
Tossing the soldiers under the bus is about the most disturbing thing anyone can do in this country considering the sacrifices they have made.

Speaking about the war itself.
We did not start the war in Afghanistan and the only reason why we have not used our force on them is because of the sorry azz liberals in Congress that use soldiers as pawns for political gain.

The Iraqi war...
All depends on how you look at things.
the liberals will forever lie and say Bush went in on his own and there will always be a question of whether or not we should have went in.
Debating that fact is pointless at this stage of the game.

The Troops don't get to pick where or who we fight.
I have family and friends and a bunch of my friends sons and daughters all heading to the military this fall and to hear that spineless fuching pansie rip the soldiers just makes my blood boil.
I would pay a large amount of money to meet that coward just to smack him like a b!tch.

http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

"We are talking about the REAL HUMANBEINGS CALLED SOLDIERS that have no choice but to go where they are told and what to do when they get there.'

I agree with that on WW 1 and WW 2 and the vietnam war where they were drafted. But the others - they volunteered for those wars - not drafted. Anyone who would volunteer to go into a hot lethal war zone where they had a bad strategy, bad leader in the White House - you roll the dice and taks your chances. Not a good assignment by any means. Three very unpopular wars - not a good deal. I have a lot more sympathy for the Vietnam vets for they were drafted into that debacle and had no choice. I have some friends who were over there. I think that idiot Bush should have been given a gun and helmet and sent to Iraq for a month or so to see how he would like it. I have total disrespect for that man a real pu$$y.

WOW!
You are one screwed up individual.




http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

That's fine if you don't like Bush that's your prerogative but to not have Sympathy or respect for our soldiers is another story.
Any man or woman who wears a uniform and fights for mine and your freedom, and our country is a "HERO". This has nothing to do with race, gender, or their political affiliation. However it has everything to do with our military men and women who are ready to sacrifice their families and own life's so they can protect ours. These men and woman command all of our up most respect and sympathy for their actions.

How dare you have the Gaul to say none of them are Hero's and none of them deserve your respect, or Sympathy.

How dare you!!!! No matter what your political views our.

Thank God your idiotic opinion is not how most Americans think. Make no mistake, the men and woman in our military are all "HERO'S.

"WOW!
You are one screwed up individual"

Funny I was just thinking the same about you. God help us if your kind gets control of the presidency - right wing extremist war mongers. The coorporate elite love people who think like you but guaranteed deep down they consider you soo much fodder. I hope you realize that.

"How dare you have the Gaul to say none of them are Hero's and none of them deserve your respect, or Sympathy"

Hold on a minute cowboy - you must not know how to read. I said I respect most the WW 1 and WW 2 vets the most and feel sorry for the Vietnam Vets - they were taken advantage of big time for another bull$hit war - worse than the ones we've just had. Anyone who volunteers for the bull$hit wars we've just had in particular the Iraq war - than they roll the dice and take their chances. Why anyone would want a part of that is beyond me.

BengalBear, many of the troops enlisted before the wars, but once you are in and war is started you don't have a choice. It's not as if there was no one in the military and then they all rushed to sign up once Bush sent us into Iraq.

Also, Bush said during the 2000 debates that he would not use our military for nation building, a slap at Clinton and Gore at the time. It turned out he was just another lying politician saying whatever his advisers told him would get him elected. Shocking, I know.

That's one of the reasons I never considered enlisting. If it came down to it, I am willing to fight to protect my family. But I'm not enlisting to be sent off to die at the whim of some draft-dodging politician. No thanks.

"We do do, and we do it at a very, very high level," Lewis said.

An unfortunate example of someone that enlisted and wound up in that (Iraq) war was Matt Maupin. Some in my family were very patriotic about that as he enlisted in the Nat Guard circa 2000 and then the war broke out and sometime circa 2003 he was sent over to Iraq where in 2004 he was captured and then executed. That was truly unfortunate. At the time he went in the Army Reserves that was just before the 911 incident. We went into Afghan in early 2002 and then that knucklehead Rumsfeld twisted Bush's arm and said "Lets do iraq" in a very cavalier manner. Matt was deployed to the area and the rest is history. Too bad for Matt an idiot like Bush became president - stupid is as stupid does and Matt paid the ultimate price.

How about the Korean War? Was that a stupid war too? How about Grenada and Panama?

And the Dumbest Thread of the Year honor goes to....bengalbear it is. Congratulations.

Tell me who the hero in your life is...

http://www.iraqwarheroes.org/sanchezec.htm

If only you had the courage of your convictions.

Sir you are not exactly Mensa material either. I left out the Korean war since that was a conflict not a declared war and that conflict is still in progress. I have the most respect for those who fought in wars that have a conclusion not ongoing conflicts that never end. That is stupidity. I like wars to end - not last forever and get the job done and do whatever it takes to end it in a timely manner. Sounds like you seem to like those wars that never end (like Iraq was) and afghan - fodder for the right wing extremists. You and Murf should hold hands more often idiot.

So what you are saying is if a young man is killed in a war that you don't like, you don't give a sh!t since the politicians didn't give you a good enough definition of why we are there?

You are beyond medication my friend, you need to be in some type of mental institution.

I have several family members and friends that would love to meet you in a bar one night and have you explain to them how they are not worthy enough because you don't like the reason we are there...lol, after you pick up your teeth they would buy you a beer then kick the living sh!t out of you again.

You probably should walk outside right now and toss yourself on the ground a few times for practice, so when you run into someone that kicks the sh!t out of you, you will not get injured as much.

What sad example of a man.



http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

I think in your case about the mental part it is pot calling the kettle black. I've seen your rantings on other threads and I have to question your sanity at times. As far as me being a sad example of a man, if I were you I would take care of business at your end first.

Obviously this thread is filled with war monger/extremist types and will leave you to have fun in your little sandbox. I was warned by my parents to steer clear of the red hots and this is the case here. If your kind get in the White House it looks like the type of Iraq wars we've had will return in abundance. God help us all if that happens.

Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution: Congress shall have the power to declare War. Tell me how that is done according to the Constitution...I'm waiting. Your argument holds no water. No one calls it the Korean conflict.
Disagree if you wish about the value of a particular operation, but never deny our men and women their rightful respect, admiration and thanks.

Keep digging.

It was not a declared war by the US but we became intrained in it anyway by the UN and Truman's desire to attempt to thwart the spread of communism. I do give those their due for that one even if it was incomplete and not well done.

http://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/korean-conflict/


I didn't consider that a crappy "conflict" as the guerilla wars we've had but I still think anyone who knowingly signs up for a war such as Iraq and even later Afghanistan - I think they know it is a dangerous deal - similar to an ironworker who works on 500 foot skyscrapers - they know the risks - why they would sign up for such a duty where the risk/reward is terrible and the leaders and politicians are in charge of such poorly run affairs - that is beyond me.

Of course you think I am insane because you don't have the mental capacity to understand how pathetic you sound when you bash American soldiers.

I am good on my end, trust me...




http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

I think the sum and substance of all this before I put this baby to bed - of course it is tragic that someone get killed for such a stupid war as we've had in Iraq and now Afghan - however they knew what they were getting into before going over - combat in a hot lethal war zone getting our a$$e$ kicked by primitive bombs. It's just as tragic when an iron worker gets killed when he falls off a skyscraper.

I hold the most disdain not for the soldiers but for the leaders who put them there - may those folks suffer the most for the pi$$ poor job in which they handled those wars. Those people are truely without conscience in the cavaleir way they regarded human life.

Nobody is defending any leader, we are defending the soldier.
I guess you will never realize the sacrifice these young people make.
It makes it even more remarkable that they made a choice to leave behind the spoiled american way of life to place their lives in danger to protect this country and those who can't protect themselves.
Without the courage of these young men and women this country would not be as strong.



http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

Anyone that entered the military after the U.S. entered Iraq and Afghanistan has earned your disdain...all clear on that. What about those that were already in the military at the time? Should they have gone AWOL? And those that went AWOL are your heroes...certainly that would follow.

Future Canadiens:

http://www.couragetoresist.org/resister-profiles.html

Obviously you didn't read my previous post about Matt Maupin - someone that went in the reserves and wound up over in Iraq and came back in a box.

True as far as Iraq which was a farce and Afghanistan which wound up a farce - why anyone would go over there and defend this country on the Bush mantra that somehow they (the massive muslim army) would somehow come over here enmasse and create mayhem. Anyone that beileved that - they have a real problem and anyone going over to those countries on that same premise - well - as I stated they knew the risks but to go over ther on the Bush premise - I just can't accept that. Let's hope Bush is one of a kind and we never have to deal with someone like that again. Anyone who bought the Bush premise - soldier or not - was brainwashed. We quit believing in Santa when we were 8 or so - but to believe that Bush premise - that is the same ilk.

OK...
I will agree to remove all soldiers from all hotbeds.
We only need soldiers to protect our friends.
The day we remove all soldiers, we remove every penny and every single resource.
We no longer send money/medicine/food of any kind.

Then in about 10 years we can go in there and clean up the mess created by the inbreds and warlords.
We can find the mass graves of innocent people.
We can find mass graves created by disease.
We can find mass graves created by famine.

Bring the soldiers home and line them up along the borders and give them the green light to destroy anything and everything that moves.

I wonder how nations like France or Germany will be after our protection is gone.
I wonder how nations in Africa will survive without our resources.
I wonder how many hundreds of thousands of Jewish people will be killed by cowards?
I wonder how many infants will be tossed away like garbage because they are from a different tribe?
I wonder how many little children will be raped because they are sex slaves?

We are the t!t to the world ,but we have an obligation to be the biggest d!ck on the planet to keep order.

http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

I can appreciate your generosity in doing all these things but there are limits. We can't be all things to all people and we are over extended now. If you look back in history all great countries that became over extended ultimately failed. If we are to do all these altruistic things we need to pass the hat - we are broke basically (our gdp n = the nat debt now and that is a bad thing) and we need help to impliment these things - we can't go it alone.

That is my point.
We can't protect the world from home.
If you want to feed the world, we have to protect the food.
You do realize that massive amounts of food directed at an entire population is taken by war lords for themselves.

You want our t!t, you have to take the rest.

We are not over extended, we are careless and continue to feed the corruption on a daily basis

http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

"Those wars were crap events esp. the Iraq war. The Afghan war could have been better if we had the right leader not the country bumpkin Bush."


Bush started that war--but it has been escalated and managed by YOUR BOY Barrack F'ing Osama. Here's what's been said about your boy's war:

THERE IS NO PRIMARY TARGET AND NO OBJECTIVES.

There ya go. Go ahead--pull something out of your azz before your boy starts sucking someone's else's c*ck overseas and trying to avoid future wars.


Here's my take:

1. Stop being global policemen for the UN. That job sucks. Let them sh*theads wear the sky blue helmets. If you wear one of those f*cking things--then you deserve to be shot at.

2. Iran and North Korea are already in the crosshairs. Time to make the 1st strike and take care of that mess now.

3. The world is clamoring for the US to get involved with Syria problem. Don't touch that sh*t with a 10-foot pole.

4. FOR THE LAST TIME, KICK THE UN RIGHT THE F*CK OUT OF NEW YORK. Let them go to Brussels, Paris, or where the f*ck ever they want. Or disband it. Either way, it's a waste of time to keep on following them idiots anymore or quit funding it. Without US backing, the UN would go away. And I would love to see that happen.

5. Time to realize who your best ally on the planet is (Israel). Send them the money you are sending idiot rogue countries like Iran, Pakistan, or Afghanistan. Send it to the Israelis instead because they deserve it.



"So he got fired? Big deal. It's happened to the best of us. So he got kicked out of his house by his 400 lb'ed wife?!?!? That's probably better for him anyways."-OldSchooler on ChrisMBHater's absence

You sound like a Murf disciple - a war monger to the core. What scares me if your boy Mitt gets in we will have many more wars like Iraq and to go into Iran - how will we handle that and will we get support from the UN whom you seem to hate? Do we even know for sure that they are building nuclear weapons - we suspect it but where is the proof? Another debacle like Iraq will happen if we go into Iran only Iran will be a lot more difficult. Sounds like the repubs are addicted to these kind of wars worse than the worst crack addict without regards to cost in $ or men lost. If this is what you want - constant wars you will get it if your man Mitt gets in.

"You sound like a Murf disciple - a war monger to the core."


And you sound like you have your head clear up your a$$hole. It must be a sh*tty life not knowing your azz from a hole in the ground (pun intended). Know thy enemy, son. They all lie in the Persian Gulf and above the 38th Parallel. It is only a matter of time before the sh*t all goes down anyways. Better now before they really become nuclear (they already have).

And how does ANY of those points make me a GD "war monger"?!??!?!?!?!? I'm only stating the the cold hard facts of the state of the world, presently. Either you can bury your head in the sand (like you're currently ignorantly doing) or face the truth.

Either way, you're coming along with us.





"So he got fired? Big deal. It's happened to the best of us. So he got kicked out of his house by his 400 lb'ed wife?!?!? That's probably better for him anyways."-OldSchooler on ChrisMBHater's absence

You sound brainwashed to me. That verbage is a holdover from the Bush mantra. We need the facts son - not old Bush propaganda.

Yes I can almost detect the rancid pronunciation... "New-kyuh-ler"

You say that, don't you OldSchool? lol

Mikey is cleverer than you think.

Anyone who dies for their country or is willing to die for their country is a hero in my book. So yes, the soldiers for the most part are heroes.

The pencil pushers Bush/Obama are not the heroes, nor do they seek that label as much as the right want to accuse the President and the left wants to accuse the former President.

"Bush"


So when are you idiots going to start taking some accountability instead of pointing your finger at the last guy? And quit saying "Whelp...Bush never gave us much to work with" horsesh*t. You still have a job to do.

STOP F*CKING WHINING, Social collaborators--and start doing your f*cking job.

Be happy to mate but first you and some of your right wing buddies need to go up to Capitol Hill in a big van and rap some of the Congressmen (repubs) with a big ugly stick to pass some of those jobs bills. I'd like to see work started on the Keystone pipeline if only they could get the route worked out - the sooner the better.

War monger?
LMAO...
Another liberal tag?
The liberal progressives will rally and start a civil war against STEREOTYPING but for some odd reason have this compulsive obsession with stereotyping anyone that will not bow down to their whacked out agenda.

So, to make you realize how embarrassing you are, I would love for you to provide the evidence of me ever saying that I loved war.
I will not hold my breath waiting for you to come up with that answer, just like I have not been waiting for the pathetic losers that called me a racist or a homophobe to provide their evidence.

Now, as you sit in the comfort of your home without fear of an RPG coming through your window, I would love for you to imagine a world without those silly men and women in American Uniforms that you take for granted.
When you drive to the store to purchase your feminine products, just take a few seconds and think to yourself what it would be like if you had to worry about something blowing up as you drive past or taking a bullet the second you step out of your car.

The more debates I have with liberals, the more I respect the jobs of the people that work with the mentally challenged.

As far as the issues on Capital Hill..
Do some research.
What party had complete control of this country when Mickey took office?
Who controlled congress when Bush held office over the last 2 years?
Who keeps blocking everything today in the Senate?

Where is the evidence that Romney wants to attack Iran?

Dude, Ed Shultz/Rachel Maddcow/Crissy Hayes/Mathews/Olberman and Moore, all have mental issues.
They will lie, not twist the facts to meet their agenda, but flat out lie to promote socialism.
Ed Shulz makes BAGHDAD BOB look credible.
As he stated last night during the Walker recall...it is too close to call yet as the numbers were reading a 69% vote for Walker, reminded me of baghdad bob saying that Iraq had defeated the enemy as the american tanks rolled by his windows...lmao.

Walker won last night because people are tired of watching this country fail.
People are tired of the BLAME BUSH agenda.
People are tired of hearing excuses.
People are tired of this transparent leaders hidden agenda and special closed door meetings.
People are tired of the government standing in the way of progress.
People are tired of hearing about the economy while watching reckless spending and irresponsible behavior.
People are tired of the bullsh!t.

Calling people racist or making childish claims about a war on women is not going to work.
The liberals need a plan other than trick politics.
Spending and making this country into a failed socialist state, is not a solid agenda.

http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

Welcome to 2007 Murf.

Mikey is cleverer than you think.

Murf you love these kind of wars - You're a war monger deep down - you can tell me, I won't tell a soul honest.
Btw we've had a Republican house the last 2 years and did anything get done - talk about obstructionism. I hate to think what will happen if your man Mitt gets in - wellcome back to the depression part 2.

"When you drive to the store to purchase your feminine products, just take a few seconds and think to yourself what it would be like if you had to worry about something blowing up as you drive past or taking a bullet the second you step out of your car."

Sounds like you bought the old Bush fear monger mantra hook line and sinker - that somehow whordes of Islams would come over here enmasse and start blowing up everything in sight. Talk about mentally challenged - Bush was as dumb as they come and to buy his B/S - that makes you dumber than him. Nuff said.

I can see that you have trouble understanding a conversation, so have someone explain things to you here.
I never said "Islams"..I am guessing you mean muslims were coming here to blow things up..I was giving you a picture of what those soldiers that you seem to dislike are doing when they wake up every day in that war that we did not create.

Blaming the republicans is not going to work this time around.

As for the war...
I am with you on this, pull every soldier out of that good for nothing waste of space over there.
Then pull every resource we have off the table.
No money/no food/no meds/no weapons/no ammo and no help when the taliban takes over.
That is a win win..our soldiers are not being killed and the Commander can stop running around apologizing and we save some serious cash.

Place the soldiers around our border and shoot anything that moves.




http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

Muslims, Islams, what's the difference- they all hate us. As for the Afghan war - the only live game in town now - I say get the US soldiers out of direct combat and use them for training only - it's sink or swim now for Afghan. That reminds me years ago I had a physics teacher tell someone (not me I swear) it sink or swim time now. He just barely passed but he got the message. Let's do the same over there.

As far as the repubs - true they didn't leave obama with much and he was light on experience going in working a bad deal on all fronts. Unfortunately if something doesn't happen soon the independents will leave his ranks enmasse and the rough thing here - I'm not sure the repubs have the answer either and more than likely if the election is close than even if the repubs keep the House they might get the Senate but not the 60% majority - gridlock like we've had and I'm not sure we'll see much economic advance with Europe in the toilet. If Europe breaks up it's Katie bar the door and a major sell off in stocks here and another recession maybe a bad one. Will be interesting to hear the debates.

"I was giving you a picture of what those soldiers that you seem to dislike"

It's not the soldiers I dislike - they volunteered for a very hazardous duty over in Iraq - I guess the ones I really disliked at the time were the leaders who put them over there - I remember in 2004 - 2008 they were bringing those boys back in body bags and it was painful to see - I felt and still do that they should have given those bozos a helmet and gun and put them on the front lines and have them experience roadside bombs - that would have been the thing to do.

Sorry to chime in David Duke.... But there are quite a few here who found your white sheets....

T

rear...go away, you failed to provide any evidence when called to the carpet.
Same with your other mentally challenged life partners BA and Trooper.

I watched the Ed show tonight just to watch him squirm.
He was stuck and it was fun to watch.
He could not lie/twist the facts or even play the racism card on this one!

So the new play today from the "lean forward" whack jobs was to complain about the money raised for the elections.
They are clever at times, I give them credit.

Failed liberal tags...
Racism
War on Women
War on the poor
War on the middle class
Bush
Homophobia

So now they are trying to say that the rich are going to "purchase" the White House.
I don't deny the rich people that will drop millions and millions of dollars if Mickey and his Disney flock regain complete control will be spending an absurd amount of money on this election, but MSNBC is twisting this into something new.
They are pretending that Romney will be the first person to run for office because he has rich friends.
They are playing this up like it is the rich vs the poor and the poor have no chance against those evil rich guys.
LOL..

This election is going to be nasty.
The sad part is that most people will cast a vote based on false information and flat out lies and we are stuck with either Mickey or Romney.
Brilliant minds all over this country and we get one of these jokers....


http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

It's already nasty. All you see are political ads over and over again. Like they say in show business you ain't seen nothin yet.

Failed liberal tags...
Racism
War on Women
War on the poor
War on the middle class
Bush
Homophobia

Failed? Are you serious, its works great for the liberals.

It only works on the weak.



http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

uh, I repeat, it works great for the liberals.

Politics = Propaganda = Bull$hit - a true identity. We will hear lots of this till Nov. 6 and it won't mean a tinkers d@mn.

You are right Bear...it will not mean anything but the weak minded minions that follow political parties will eat this sh!t up.
The left will be the left and the right will be the right.
I am hoping the normal thinking Americans use common sense and vote with some intelligence.

I believe the other night was a shocker to many people.
The left now has to develop a game plan other than blaming others or using guilty white man syndrome tactics.
The people want a blue print, not a bunch of stump tag lines.

http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

Like I said - the debates will be interesting. If the economy tanks - it's over for Obama.

I kind of agree bengalbear but it isn't always that simple.

Issues abroad sometimes can contribute (i.e. whatever is going on in Iran/Libya/North Korea/even Iraq/Afghanistan) if the people feel that the President is too little involved or even too much involved for their liking and the rhetoric that the contender uses on those issues. For example, if Iran takes a turn for the worse and seem like more of a national security breach and President Obama does nothing, Romney and company will attack the President probably successfully. On the other hand, if President Obama pulls a Bush and simply invades Iran unilaterally for the same reason he would really kill his own base and Republicans would still call him weak on national security, so that would be a political no-win situation.

Also, political mis-steps...I'm looking at Governor Romney and VP Biden here. Biden is good for foot in mouth kind of comments out of nowhere...although he never disappoints in debates it is his other remarks that has people questioning him, and when his words force the president to either apologize or speak on behalf of those words (i.e. gay marriage) he can be a danger to his own party. Same can be said for governor Romney...his potential political mis-steps are more comments that make his seem too rich/too out of touch (basically what is unappealing about him compared to Santorum/Cain/Huntsman), or to make a bad choice on VP pick (IMO McCain lost the election when he made the choice of Sarah Palin...for every guy who voted for them because she was good looking ten probably voted against her, especially women, because of her lack of intelligence, knowledge, experience, and polish).

It stinks that in the end it still comes down to politics. I love my country, but politically, something has to change, whether a third party (I'm looking at you Ron Paul or maybe if one of the commanding generals from Iraq/Afghanistan were to lead a third party like the Whigs) or term limits to congress/Senate (that will never happen because tenured congressmen/women are never going to eliminate their own jobs!).

I wish two or three parties would join the club.
The more options we have the better off we are and it cuts down on the rhetoric.
Liberals and Right wingers would much more to worry about than tossing the same tag lines at each other

We have some of the best minds on this planet and we continue to pick from used car salesmen.



http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

Not mainstream enough but I would like to see more of this party in Ohio...if you wonder where my political beliefs lie, it would be with the Modern Whigs!

(from their wiki page)

Political platform

The MWP follows a six-tenet philosophy that the party does not specifically associate with centrism. It is instead denoted as "Modern Whig philosophy" and "Methodology over Ideology" by the Modern Whigs themselves[25][26][27][28] and also by others, as the movement takes stands on issues across the political spectrum.[29][30]

The six tenets of the Modern Whig philosophy are:[31]

Fiscal responsibility "The Modern Whig philosophy is to empower the states with the resources to handle their unique affairs."
Energy independence "Reduce dependence on foreign oil by developing practical sources of alternative energy. This will have the simultaneous effect of changing the national security dynamic."
Education/Scientific advancement "Increased public and private emphasis on fields such as space, oceanic, medical and nanotechnology. Also, providing common-sense solutions to enhance our educational system from pre-school to university-level studies."
States' rights "Each state can determine its course of action based on local values and unique needs."
Social progression "Government should refrain from legislating morality."
Veterans' affairs "Vigilant advocacy relating to the medical, financial, and overall well-being of our military families and veterans."

There are also self-described "General Principles" of Modern Whig philosophy that are included along with the tenets: "This includes general principles of fiscal responsibility, strong national defense and bold social progression."[32]

I like to summarize it as the Democratic Party minus the weak (military) and corrupt (unions) and the Republican Party minus the dumb (wanting to cut education/science/refusing to seek alternate energy sources) and the hypocrites (pointless moral issues).

Not a bad outline.

States are the bloodline to survival.
At the state level, you have better control of your representation, and fruit cakes from New York and California don't control your life style.
I have been saying that for years and years.



http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

..."Fiscal responsibility "The Modern Whig philosophy is to empower the states with the resources to handle their unique affairs."

States handle the affairs, not the Federal Government. Hmm.. Ok I'll play along.

Energy independence "Reduce dependence on foreign oil by developing practical sources of alternative energy. This will have the simultaneous effect of changing the national security dynamic."

Alternative sources of energy, huh? Thats the answer, now lets let each individual state figure out how to do that. We will have 50 different solutions going in 50 different directions. Great.


Education/Scientific advancement "Increased public and private emphasis on fields such as space, oceanic, medical and nanotechnology. Also, providing common-sense solutions to enhance our educational system from pre-school to university-level studies."

Increased public and private emphasis on science, but lets dismantle the Federal NASA and lets let the states do it, right?

States' rights "Each state can determine its course of action based on local values and unique needs."

Thats the answer to energy independence, scientific advancement and national security!

Social progression "Government should refrain from legislating morality."

Right, murder and stealing are no longer crimes, that damned moral majority!

Veterans' affairs "Vigilant advocacy relating to the medical, financial, and overall well-being of our military families and veterans."


All left up to the individual states of course.

You read one line and applied it to all. LOL! We are not talking the Articles of Confederation here! Although that seems to be what the Tea Party wants (give all rights to the states and eliminate the federal gov't the right to tax or govern).

A strong military is often equated to a strong federal government. Also, they want to give the states the rights to govern themselves in terms of moral laws and distribution of funds, educational funds. That is all.

Of course the federal gov't would have to still tax to maintain a strong military, find alternative energy resources, contribute to education, take care of veterans, etc.


But your level of hyperbole is actually a good point as to how extreme narrow minded people and parties could be. The Tea Party and factions of the GOP's mantra is the "cut spending, cut spending, cut spending" and it does not matter to them where they cut from. In Pennsylvania they have a VERY unpopular Republican governor who has managed to balance the budget but he has slashed education programs. I don't mind and even support busting the Unions like Kasich tried to do here or the guy in Wisconsin, but cutting foreign language programs and sports and extra curricular activities is not only morally wrong but also foolish. That's hurting that state's future.

I have read and reread the commentator's words, which is the subject of Murf's most recent rant.

Here is my take.

The problem with his words is that there are so many Americans that are willing to jump all over anyone who does not 100% support the military in every single endeavour or support the troops in every possible way.

We have gotten to the point now where there is no dissenting opinion allowed. If you attempt to speak your mind or even consider an alternative viewpoint, then the Murfs of the world will jump all over you and attempt to silence your speech (or physically threaten you).

Here are his exact words:

"I think its interesting because I think it is very difficult to talk about the war dead and the fallen without invoking valor, without invoking the words heroes. Why do I feel so [uncomfortable] about the word hero? I feel comfortable uncomfortable about the word because it seems to me that it is so rhetorically proximate to justifications for more war. Um, and, I dont want to obviously desecrate or disrespect memory of anyone thats fallen, and obviously there are individual circumstances in which there is genuine, tremendous heroism: hail of gunfire, rescuing fellow soldiers and things like that. But it seems to me that we marshal this word in a way that is problematic. But maybe Im wrong about that..."

When you read the words in their entirety, I understand where he is coming from. Granted, I dont believe what he believes. I think that you have to use force when its necessary. As Murf would say "Holding hands and singing Kum-ba-ya" wont get you far with Islamic extremists. However, I do praise Hayes for his willingness to shed some light on an issue that is rarely talked about. Does the concept of glorifying dead soldiers empower our society's view that War is, ultimately, a good thing? Or perhaps, more importantly, is WAR the only thing that can resolve these issues?

Personally, my problem with WAR, at least in the last 40 years or so, is that our government saw what WAR can do to the American Public in WWI and WWII and how it can unite and get the nation to "circle the wagons". This can be a fairly powerful rhetorical tool - epsecially when you want the public to ignore the REAL reasons for initiating the conflict. I think we get so tied up in "getting even" that we, the public, forget about "IS IT JUST"?

Saddam Hussein was an evil muthertrucker. No doubt about it. However, I wonder sometimes if Bush sleeps well knowing how much money he spent and how many lives he wasted in dethroning a ruler that could not, in any way, hurt our nation. But then, if you cloak something in the blanket of FREEDOM like he did, you can fool many folks who refuse to dig a little deeper. And maybe, just maybe, Bush doesnt give a damn because he knew his cause was not just, but he felt it was worthwhile to sacrifice those kids for that oil. Do you think he will ever admit it? I dont either.

Im rambling. Sorry, gents...

"Insert witty quotation here"

One of the reasons Bush pushed the war was the supposed assassination attempt on George Bush Sr. after the gulf war - a personal vendetta deal.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/25/pentagon-report-shows-no-_n_93264.html

This whole war was obviously a fiasco done by a boy trying to do a man's job. The whole deal could have been handled a lot differently without going to war and sacfraficing 4000 + men. Unfortunate.

The problem with his words is that there are so many Americans that are willing to jump all over anyone who does not 100% support the military in every single endeavour or support the troops in every possible way.

OK, now replace the word military with blacks, gays etc...

I did not threaten anyone with violence, I said, I have a few family members and friends that would not hesitate to smack the sh!t out of an idiot that talks trash about soldiers that have had to deal with things in their daily lives that most americans would shiver about by just hearing it.
Don't twist my words.

You do have have a right to be a loud mouth idiot american, those soldiers provided you that right by sacrificing beyond your wildest imagination.
I have never told anyone that they did not have the right to speak.
You have a right to be a moron and bash soldiers or use them as pawns like the politicians do and I have every right to defend the soldiers.

Don't get me started on liberals...

http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

Like i said the other day we ought to be talking trash about the leaders who put them there. For the love of me I never could understand why anyone would volunteer for such an affair especially from 2004 on when the war went bad but for some reason unbeknown to me they did it - knowlingly going into a very dangerous place with a bad strategy and boys coming home almost daily either in body bags or with missing pieces. I condemn once again the people who put them there.

They join because they are the very folks that most liberals hate.
Die hard Red blooded Americans that still believe there is hope in this country.
Men and women who have been watching this country fade into a giant third world country.
Men and women who believe in the fear of God and love of country.
Men and women who CLING TO THEIR BIBLES AND THEIR GUNS.
Men and women who still believe in the words like respect and accountability/leadership/responsibility/ hard work/ goals and determination.

My son is strongly considering joining the Navy or Air Force.
He understands exactly what this country used to stand for and the only way it survives is if we defend it in the most disgusting places on this earth and fight for the rights of Americans right here at home.



http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

Nobody has to "get you started" on liberals. (See the opening salvo of this pathetic troll thread.)
I am the liberal you are describing and I do not hate soldiers. I just don't go out of my way to drool on them like you. And I certainly, while I respect it, would not agree with their choice to take a bullet for the present state of this nation. Which, in the grand scheme of things, will be quite temporary. So perhaps what you see as hatred is really just a misunderstanding; a lack of each others' realities. I can't understand what would make somebody make that choice. That doesn't make me un-American or anti-military. It still just makes you a raving wingnut inventing all this outrage.

Kinda like you and the rest of this board. Disconnected.

Granfalloons.

Mikey is cleverer than you think.

Interesting in that if I were a young person today I might consider the Air Force for I was in Air Force ROTC for a time when I went to UC years ago.

But that Iraq war - we had a bad strategy and bad leader(s) - Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld - the 3 stooges when it comes to war strategy. I doubt that Bush knew as much as I and I don't know much about military strategy and what is involved in invading and taking over a country and all the ramifications therein. Bush was a bad boss and I would not want to work for someone like that for even a minute. That war (Iraq) brought back bad memories of another bad war (Vietnam) where they were shipping boys back in boxes at a rapid rate. Back then we had 2 bad bosses - first Johnson and then Nixon.

Nixon did get us out of Vietnam.

And just because someone votes Democrat does not mean that they "hate" our soldiers. I love, respect, and appreciate our soldiers.

Murf,

You sounds like one of those whack jobs on Fox News that think that only non-liberals love this country and are passionate about it.
You do realize that there are members of he military who are liberals, right? You do realize that its not only comprised of right wing whack jobs, right? There are also moderates in the military, you know that right?

Im closer to a liberal than I am to a right wing whack job, but I love my country as much as you do.
Do you understand that?
We can differ on poltics, but still love the USA?
We can differ as to what direction the country is heading, but we both still love the USA, you get that right?
We can differ on how much we can tax the wealthy or not tax the poor, but we can both still love our country, right?
You can argue all day long until you are blue in the face about how the country is not what the founding fathers intended, but I know you still love the USA.
Conversely, I can argue all day until I am blue in the face that I don't now, nor will I ever agree with all the things the Founding Fathers beleived in and that I think the country should and must evolve as time goes on to fill its needs. But I still love my country. No more or less than you do.

Die hard, red blooded Americans? What the fukk does that mean? Im die hard and red blooded as well. You dont get to pick and choose who gets into that category.



"Insert witty quotation here"

True Nixon got us out of Nam but he was elected in 1968 and it took 5 years to wind things down. True he had to get 500,000 men out but to me he didn't seem to be in a big hurry to do it and when peace was declared in 1973 he resigned in 1974 basically in disgrace over the Watergate fiasco. Yes I count him as a bad boss.

I have no problem with people believing in different things and having their opinions on what can save this country.
I don't believe all liberals are american haters, but I do believe the most extreme "lean forward progressives", hate the foundation of this country and have little respect for the troops.

History provides evidence of why someone would question the whack jobs.
The soldiers don't pick the fight, they finish it when allowed to.
To even question why anyone would join the military is mind blowing to me.
You do realize that we need a military?
You do realize that the world needs the United States Military don't you?
You do realize if these young men and women did not make the choice, the government would be forced to draft people don't you?

So instead of questioning them, you should be thanking them (it is not called drooling, it is called respect)

The founding fathers gave us a perfect blue print on the structure of this nation.
Yes, we should change and tinker things as time moves along, but the FOUNDATION of that blue print, must stay in place with no wiggle room.
We were never supposed to be a democracy because they were afraid it would turn to socialism (if the liberals control things, they would be correct in their fear)

Now one of you liberal types please explain things to me:
If half of this country don't pay taxes.
If half of the homes in this country receive some type of government check.( that % will climb instantly)
If you have millions of illegals not paying taxes but receive "benefits" and some apparently getting refunds from the IRS set up by the government.
If you have 10% of the population not working.
If you have outrageous restrictions and regulations that damper your ability to attract world business.
#1--who is going to pay for this
#2--how long do you think they can pay for that
#3--how are you going to reverse the damage done to society when this fails

And please, for the love of all things holy, explain to me why you are not outraged over the worlds biggest d-bags making a sh!t load of money off of us because of one of your happy horse sh!t save the planet ideas.









http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

"To even question why anyone would join the military is mind blowing to me"

It is mind blowing to me why anyone would volunteer to work for someone like Bush - arguably one of the worst leaders of all time. A bad war, bad strategy - what is the rationale of volunteering for that? What scares me is if Romney gets in we will have more wars like Iraq. I have nothing against the military - if used and set up right an important tool - but if used like it's been used with the leaders we've had - I have to question that.

It is mind blowing to me why anyone would volunteer to work for someone like Bush
~~~~~~~~~~~~

They don't work for Bush..they work to protect America and those who can't protect themselves.
If they did not volunteer, then you would have people crying about the government forcing young men into the military.
As much as some of you don't want to believe, we need the military more than anything else in this country.
Without the military, we have nothing!

http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

Excuse me but Bush was the commander in Chief - their ultimate boss. They worked for Bush - indirectly he hired them.

Btw did you ever serve in the military? As gung ho as you seem to be and gullible too you would have been a perfect candidate for the Bush regime - he got you hook line and sinker.

The Modern Whigs! A third party would only ensure a Democrat win. Its all in the math. about 85-90% of blacks vote for Dems, hook line and sinker. Its the free square in bingo. So now, Republicans have to fight Dems for the remaining 85% or so of the votes to over come the roughly 15% head start. A tough task but an impossible task if the Repubs have to split the remaining vote three ways. (rough math, forgive the immaterial rounding errors)

On a side note, I read where the Freedom Tower would be compete in 2016. What an embarrassment, 15 years since 9/11. It took less than two to build the Empire State Building, three to get both the original towers up, three years for the Sears Tower. Unions, government bureaucracy/regulations and lawyers. All hallmarks of a leftist government. There is nothing to love about trajectory of this country, unless of course you are a unioner, government worker or a lawyer.

Homey, I disagree with you sometimes but I've seldom failed to understand you. The trajectory of the county is focused around unions? That's almost a Murfish disconnect from facts and reality.

Union membership is the lowest in generations, if not a century. Personally, I think there's some overlap that fact and the skyrocketing shift of wealth in this country to the very, very rich. Of course, our insane taxatation policy in the last decade has been a contributor as well.

I just got back from a great New York vacation. I'm happy to say that the french fries were salty and plentiful, the construction was robust and the community was bustling with commererce of every variety. Whatever they're doing in New York, it appears to be working.

Yup. Orgasmic spending is always fun to watch in the short term. Then the bottom drops out when you run out of other people's money.

The least you could've done was bring us back a New York Reuben sammich!

Homey, that is a very short sighted point of view. And to clarify first of all I am not declaring the Whigs are the new third party...it would have to be the Reform Party if they were to add Ron Paul or the Green Party adding Al Gore.
Your short sightedness ignores history. Parties change their tunes and adapt. Voters change their allegiances. Sometimes new parties develop, old ones fade out, and in some cases the parties evolve over time to flip flop their original stances.


Keeping in mind just the race issue. The first Republican President ended slavery. This president won because the Democratic party was split (the South was pretty much all Democrat at that time...yes, back then they were the party of choice for white southerners, and blacks and women did not have suffrage at that time). Keeping in mind that this was a fairly new party, blacks supported the GOP even though they were the party of big business really until the New Deal era when Deomcrats began denouncing segregation. Really since the 1960s when George Wallace's electoral presence as a Democrat and later a Segregationalist helped to influence the Nixon era GOP's "southern strategy" the South has been exclusively Republican with the exceptions of a couple of elections voting for their own (Jimmy Carter in 1976 and Bill Clinton twice both had success in the South, but other than Florida it is always a surprise when someone like Obama comes away with North Carolina and Virginia, and I believe that even Al Gore lost his home state of Tennessee?).

Let's look at the Catholic vote. A strong majority of Catholics voted Democrat in the early and mid 1900s, as these typically middle class people were not for big business and voted on behalf of the poor. FDR era Dems are mostly dieing off, but many who still vote Democrat simply will summarize that "Republicans are for the rich, Democrats for the poor," kind of a different spin than we hear sometimes these days (because of Hollywood and the educational elites voting Democrat, Republicans have a better rally cry for middle America sans Unions of course). Obviously JFK was probably the pinnacle of Catholics voting Democrat (Al Smith was the first Catholic to run but it was against FDR himself). LBJ was also popular amongst Catholics as he was again clearly for the poor. It wasn't until moral issues began to take over that the vote began to really sway. Jimmy Carter as a Democrat really was the last (and maybe only) Democratic President to run and govern with what we would now call conservative moral stances regarding religion. Ronald Reagan countered by claiming to govern with just as much morals and the rest is history. Catholics now definitely gravitate towards the GOP almost regardless of economic status because Republicans tend to be anti-abortion. When I lived in PA you would see Rick Santorum bumper stickers in even the poorest of towns. Yes, that same guy who sees it as morally wrong for house wives to work rather than staying home to raise a family. Why? The abortion issue.

Even the war issue. Early 1900s Republicans were the isolationists, the ones who opposed the US' membership in the League of Nations, the ones who opposed US interference in the two World Wars, both seen by Americans as "European wars." Cold War era and beyond has been the opposite...really since Ike Eisenhower the GOP has been seen as the party more likely to use force abroad and especially Reagan era and beyond using government spending on the military. While Democrats, the party who's presidents governed over both World Wars, are now the ones more reluctant to invade or support the use of military force abroad.

Maybe we are stuck with these two parties forever. If Ross Perot never drops out in 1992 maybe the trajectory changes even back then (Perot was leading both candidates when he dropped out, and never again regained the momentum that he had when he dropped out). But maybe there will be someone or something out there to change all of this. I honestly felt that 9-11 would unify the country more, but unfortunately, the decision to invade Iraq rather than Afghanistan and the longer than hoped for/expected war that followed has driven this country much further apart than it was pre-911. This is why I still claim that W is one of the bottom five presidents of all time just ahead of the three preceding Lincoln. His presidency undid all of the hard work put in by all of the presidents post WWII in just one terrible decision. Keeping in mind that I respect the office of the presidency and the president regardless of political party that says a lot.

Hook,

I guess it depends on where you live. In Ohio the unions are much too strong and influential. Just look at who and what they have supported.

They voted for President Obama, who is pro-union.

Yes, they the state did vote for Kasich (although Strickland put up a much closer fight in re-election than many thought given the economy), but then defeated his union-busting baby bill in a landslide last November. In the same election that they defeated the president's Health Care baby in a landslide as well (if you are in a union, you already have the best health care, so why would you want to pay for anyone else???)

Last November proved the strength of the unions in Ohio and I'm sure states like PA and Michigan they still have great influence. You may be correct about nationally (in Wisconsin for instance the union-busting governor just won in his recall attempt, and the bible belt and south right now will go Republican regardless), but in Ohio the unions spend so much money on advertising that they can be difficult to defeat.

I was in a union once and I think both union membership in Ohio is down and because of the economy the unions have lost much of their power (in Ohio). What scares me is what I said some time ago - the rich have gotten so much stronger and control so much more of the wealth that I think we could see more unrest here in this country the closer we get to the elections. OWS was the first warning shot over the bow - this could be a nasty year.

Look who showed up to the debate talking nonsense as usual.
Deputy Goofey, welcome back from New York..



http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

"I have no problem with people believing in different things and having their opinions on what can save this country."
-Again, see opening salvo of this thread.

"I don't believe all liberals are american haters, but I do believe the most extreme "lean forward progressives", hate the foundation of this country and have little respect for the troops."
It's less that we "hate" the foundation as much as we know the foundation has shifted and continues to shift. Understand we are talking liberalism here, not "being a Democrat".

"History provides evidence of why someone would question the whack jobs."
-What history? What evidence? Which whack jobs? Like the Romans V christ? Or world v hitler? Malcom x? The catholic church?

"To even question why anyone would join the military is mind blowing to me."
-They could fill buildings with things that are mind-blowing to you. In fact, they do! They're called libraries.

"So instead of questioning them, you should be thanking them (it is not called drooling, it is called respect"
-Oh ok because it looks like drool. I don't question them. I mostly ignore them, which is what I think they'd prefer over my smoke up their ***. THAT'S respect. They know what they fought for. The reason I don't "glorify" soldiers is because I don't want my kids to be one, mmk? I mean I put on my Military Appreciation Day hockey sweater like everyone else and stand and wave. These people aren't my family; what more do you want?

"The founding fathers gave us a perfect blue print on the structure of this nation.
Yes, we should change and tinker things as time moves along, but the FOUNDATION of that blue print, must stay in place with no wiggle room."
-Sounds pretty dogmatic. That's not sane. It doesn't allow for evolution.

"And please, for the love of all things holy, explain to me why you are not outraged over the worlds biggest d-bags making a sh!t load of money off of us because of one of your happy horse sh!t save the planet ideas."
-Nothing is holy.

You see why I question the intelligence level of your typical liberal.
Trooper comes back from New York ready to move the family there, because they seem to be getting it right.
LMAO...

A place that allowed a mosque to be built close to the Muslims greatest conquest.
A place that just voted to ban large soda and now want to toss milk and popcorn in the mix.
With your love of the East German Check points and apparently your desire to dictate to people what to eat and drink, I am shocked that you don't live with the taliban.
then again, give Obama another term and we might be just as bad.

As far as you go Bengalboy...
People like you make me ill.
You are a bottom feeder.


http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

A place that allowed a mosque to be built close to the Muslims greatest conquest.

There you go again confusing the terms "terrorists" and "Muslims." Big difference and to deliberately identify our enemies as "Muslims" is bigotry at its finest.

Actually Hook would be in the minority according to a news story I saw a few days ago. Upper income citizens in New York state, Illinois and the Peoples Republic of California are leaving their state in groves to escape stifling tax increases and business regulations. The good news for the Buckeye state is that we're one of the states they're moving to, along with Florida, Tennessee, both the Carolinas and Texas.

So bring us your rich folks, your job creators, your huddled investors yearning to be free......

"A place that allowed a mosque to be built close to the Muslims greatest conquest."~Murf

Thanks for the welcome back, Murf, and thanks for not disappointing. You'll never quite understand what the adults are discussing, but that's what makes you both predictable and amusing.

Which Muslims were you talking about, Murf? The innocent Muslims who were murdered on 9-11? Or the Muslim warriors who served and protected us before 9-11 and continue to serve and protect us since 9-11?

It's America, Murf. Muslims can build places of worship because it is America. That's what's so amazing about babbling pupetts that fill up so much of the modern day neocon ranks: They wrap themselves up in an American Flag and spout anti-American and xenophobic vitriol.

Since you hate America so much, Murf, you should really try to find a neo-Nazi country and self deport. But then you'd probably be taxed at twice the rate Eisenhower Republicans like Barack Obama would tax you, and your victim persona would conjure up even more agony.

And isn't that the point, Murf?

"People like you make me ill."

This entire thread is about YOUR illness, not anyone else's nature. You were ill well before I ever posted here.

You don't make me ill. You don't do anything TO me whatsoever, other than occasionally, and at MY discretion, amuse me.

Mikey is cleverer than you think.

LMAO...

Did I say that every single muslim on earth was responsible for killing thousands of innocent americans on 9-11?
No!

Did I say anything out of line about the muslim religion?
NO!

Do I like the muslim religion?
NO!

Do I have the right to my opinion?
As of today, the liberals will strip that at some point.

Do I like any religion at all?
NO!

If the Jewish nation:
Beat women.
Tortured women.
sold children as sex slaves.
Killed thousands on top thousands of people all over the planet
Cut heads off
killed children
rape women
hated homosexuals to the point that they kill them
Hate free speech
Hate religious freedom
and they got all of that from their "bible", I would not like that religion either.

You can bend over and be a coward all day long, and refuse to question the obvious, but there are many people like me, that is starting to take notice that the 19056 attacks since 9-11 is being done by more than a "few" chuckle heads.
The Mosque in New York is an embarrassment to anyone with an ounce of American pride.
The leader of the Mosque blamed America for 9-11.
He named it the Cordoba House
He refused to accept a free building or move to a bigger building with less rent but said no, so instead of showing respect for the families that did not want a shrine built where their loved ones were killed by mindless cowards, he said go fuch yourself.

I will never understand how you liberal types kick and scream about civil rights and human rights but embrace this whack job cult.

As far as New York...
A place that I will never visit in my life.
That place has nothing to offer me and I flat out refuse to visit a city that tells the citizens what they can eat or drink.
It is so anti-american and mind blowing that the citizens just bend over and take it, but then again, many in society support socialism.


http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

Murf, who is anti-federal government and supposedly pro-state and local government, has his panties in a bunch again about the decisions made by a local government where he doesn't even live.

Again, the people of NYC supported the mosque, overwhelmingly. If you hate big government, hate when decisions are made to appease a minority point of view, hate political correctness and hate nosy people that can't mind their own business, why do you keep harping on this mosque?

To me preventing it being built would be: big government getting involved in something without justification and stripping Americans' rights to build the buildings they see fit, where they see fit. It would be capitulating to the minority opinion that it's bad, it would be bowing to the political pressure from people like you who have made mosques in Manhattan a political issue, i.e. a politically incorrect suggestion.

I can never figure out if the "anti-government" people are really anti-government, or just say that when they don't like the particular government in power. The latter would certainly seem to fit with recent history, where Republicans support foreign wars when Republicans rule, supported Bush's expansion of the subsidized housing market, supported tripling of the national debt under Reagan & Bush 1, and then say they want the opposite of all those things and blame the other side for them as soon as Democrats get in power.

I swear there is no political accountability with some Republican diehards (and some Democrat diehards too). I think they are motivated mostly by fear, so when they win an election that fear subsides and all motivation to stay politically active and hold politicians accountable completely subsides. When they lose an election that fear doubles and the sky is falling, the failure of our political leaders is all they can think or talk about.

I don't think we will ever have political change in this country until the side that wins an election is then willing to lead the protests against the very people they helped elect.

"We do do, and we do it at a very, very high level," Lewis said.

"Fourteen Defining
Characteristics Of Fascism
By Dr. Lawrence Britt
Source Free Inquiry.co
5-28-3


Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

From Liberty Forum

http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_constitution&Number=642
109&page=&view=&sb=&o=&vc=1&t=-1"


Some of these signs are already here. If Romney gets in expect to see even more and the ones here now enhanced.

Cincy---

Yes, I believe in State power more than Federal power.
Perfect example is New York and because they support a shrine that celebrates the slaughter of innocents and they support the government dictating what they can eat or drink, I will never in my life spend a penny there.
Have no desire to feed a system that is 100% anti-american.

Bear--that is the biggest bunch of whack job liberal happy horse sh!t that I have ever come across.
If you display a flag or wear a flag shirt, your support a fascist government?
LMAO...





http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

yawn..another cut and paste off some internet site claiming proof we are another fascist nation.

CIN, I don't know where you heard NY was overwhelmingly in favor of the mosque. You must have taken that poll in some NY chapter of your Underground Western Civilization Guilt Club.

That's not the only website that talked about fascism - there are others. The one you referred to was # 1 about the flags etc. There are others like #'s 4,7,10,11,and 13 just for starters that I have seen evidence of. If your man Romney gets in you will see a lot more surface and he will have his own version of crony capitalism - Bush had his.

If the Romney version of fascism gets started you could very well see upheavels similar to Greece. Romney has no use for the middle class and working poor - esp. the lower half of the middle class. And if he whittles away benefits to Social Security and Mddicare - I wonder how the Seniors will like it.

How does a Mosque in New York celebrate 911?

Im trying to follow Murf's and Homey's thinking here.

1. 9/11 - Planes crash into the Twin Towers in NYC, Pentagon and Pennsylvania due to Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorists.

2. Post 9/11 - Some American Muslims, who are not terrorists want to build a mosque in downtown NYC.

3. The terrorists and the mosque builders believe the Muslim religion, so therefore, the American Mosque builders must think exactly like the terrorists and believe what the terrorists believe and sort of be the same person. Therefore,I will oppose the building of the Mosque.


Is that about right, boys?
Keep drinking that right wing arsenic, fellas. It provides you with good, sound logic.
It would be nice if one of you would just say what is on your mind.

Here, I will help you -

"I believe the American Mosque builders should not be able to build a mosque in New York City because a terrorist - that believes in the same God as the American Mosque builders do - hijacked a plane and crashed it into 2 buildings in New York City. Muslims are all the same. Therefore, American Mosque builders want to build a Mosque as a trophy to celebrate what the 911 hijackers did. Again, the American Muslims and the terrorists are the same people and should be treated the same."

Sound right?

Bronco, what if some MU alumni and faculty detonated a bomb destroying a building in downtown Columbus killing a thousand people. Then next to the memorial that was built, MU wanted to build a welcome center, would you call it insensitive or would you lovingly back the center like you do the mosque because hey, not all MU alumni and faculty was behind it.

ya get it know?

"Perfect example is New York and because they support a shrine that celebrates the slaughter of innocents..."~Murf.

Murf, I know you're disabled with a lack of education and a severe lack of intelligence, but that doesn't completely explain such a fabricated statement. It's merely and simply one more example of you being a liar.

Why do you make such sick crap up? Don't get me wrong, it's often comical to read. But doesn't your family get embarrassed at your public humiliation for repeatedly being exposed as a mindless liar?

It's America. Our local, state and federal governments don't persecute religious institutions here by denying their freedom to erect places of worship.

If you don't like that, you really should take your America-hating hide out of the country. I promise, we'll still laugh at you from across the border.

By the way, my wife and I spent some solemn moments at the WTC Memorial. Those reflecting pools make for some solemn reflection, as do the names of the many victims etched into the border...some of them Muslim public safety heros.

I hope the families of these heros find some solace at the Memorial and, if they choose, some solace at the Islamic Community Center.

Homey, I posted the poll number the first time you and Murf and others try to say the mosque shouldn't be built.

It broke it down by burrough. Manhattan, where the mosque will be, was the most supportive, but the total of the 5 burroughs still supported it solidly.

If you guys think local government should be allowed to make their own decisions, I don't see what sense it makes to gripe and moan about it when they do. You do realize that not everyone agrees on everything right, and most likely never will? The only way what you guys want would become the rule everywhere is through a strong, centralized government; so either live and let live, as they say, or stop claiming you want small government and just admit that what you really want is a strong federal government that you agree with on nearly everything.

"We do do, and we do it at a very, very high level," Lewis said.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/New-Yorkers-Oppose-Ground-Zero-Mosque-Poll-97602569.html

A majority of New Yorkers oppose plans to build a mosque and Muslim cultural center two blocks from Ground Zero, according to a Quinnipiac University Poll released Thursday.

Polls are like stats, you can find anything you want. But polls aside, a lot of people are upset, that we can agree on. If the Muslims really had good intentions, they would not be so adamant on erecting their victory monument.

AAAHHHHHHH! Sometimes I feel like I'm the only moderate remaining!?

The US is neither Socialist nor Fascist. President Obama and Nancy Pelosi are not Socialist. Governor Romney or President Bush are not Fascist.

I despise the use of hyperbole that unfortunately some (or many) of us believe. The use of this hyperbole in politics is just mind boggling...I would love for any of you far lefties to live one day in a fascist country or one of you far right or tea partiers to live one day in socialism. Until then we will continue to hear this garbage from the political pundits the cable news 'journalists' and the conservative talk show hosts.

And murf, it is your use simply of the word "Muslim" that is insulting. If you replaced "Muslim" with "terrorist" there would be more agreement in this thread. Instead, you are labeling the second largest religion in the world behind Christianity as evil American killers. Keeping in mind that Islam is a growing religion in the US and is wildly popular abroad, especially in Europe, a place where most of the countries are our western allies. Just because you hate Muslims does not mean that the rest of this country does or should. Even the guy that started the "War on Terror," President GW Bush, referred to Islam as "a religion of peace." The terrorists who kill the innocent are the losers of the world. Muslims in general are not the losers of the world.

You do a pretty good job of keeping things in perspective. That list of fascist tendencies that I put up - I guess when you think about it every country has some of those tendencies to a greater or lesser degree.

Anyone who has actually read the bible or the koran, and labels either chrstianity or islam as a "Religion of peace" has no perspective worth hearing, much less following.

Mikey is cleverer than you think.

"Bronco, what if some MU alumni and faculty detonated a bomb destroying a building in downtown Columbus killing a thousand people. Then next to the memorial that was built, MU wanted to build a welcome center, would you call it insensitive or would you lovingly back the center like you do the mosque because hey, not all MU alumni and faculty was behind it.

ya get it know?"

No. Its a poor example.

The 9/11 terrorists were not US citizens or loyal to anything in the USA.


"Insert witty quotation here"

No. Its a poor example.

Nope, its a good example. I think you briefly saw the light.

Wow, a lot of points good and bad to go around.

1. The attempt to build a mosque close to ground zero was nothing more than a publicity stunt by a guy who pretended it would actually be a cultural center open to all faiths. It would be like the Germans trying to build a cultural center next to Dachau. Sure they have the legal right but anyone who thinks this was done to foster greater acceptance of the Muslim religion is stoned. Many Muslims in this country did not want it built because they knew it would stir the pot. On the other hand, many Muslim countries donated huge sums of money during Katrina in an outpouring of sympathy, something that didn't get much play. Plenty of good Muslim types out there who are being tarnished by a few douche bags

2. Going into Afghanistan and punching Al-Queda and the Taliban in the nose was the right move, staying there for 10+ years to nation build was not, as the Soviets warned us. We were able to rebuild Germany and Japan because they were highly educated industrious people who loved their country and wanted life to return to their version of normalcy. The Afghans have no love of country nor are they educated. They despise outsiders and normal for them is so bad, it makes a single wide trailer on the side of a West Virgina coal mine look like one of Trump's vacation homes.

3. Going into Iraq both times was the wrong move both secretly pushed by the Saudis WHO ARE NOT OUR FRIENDS. The Iraqis have WAY more in common with us than the Saudis and Iraq and Saddam, warts and all, was our best defense against Iran.

4. MSNBC is what it is as is Fox. Fox is less over the top because they don't need to be. They are the only right leaning network so they get huge ratings while MSNBC has to fight with other left leaning networks for ratings.

5. Being disrespectful to soldiers is a no win, particularly when the guy being disrespectful would probably wet himself at the first sign of danger. In today's economy, many join because it is their best option to make something of their lives and to pay for higher education. The jobless rate among recent high school and college grads is staggering from a historic perspective. Few join because they want to go to war and kill Muslims and those that do are usually crappy soldiers.

That is all.





_____________________________________________
January 6,1991: The last post season victory for the Bengals.

Deputy Goofey...

I have pride, I understand to a coward that is filled with with white guilt might try to spin that into something else, but it does not change the facts.
Fact #1 ---MUSLIMS SLAUGHTERED INNOCENT AMERICANS, INCLUDING CHILDREN.
(I refuse to call them terrorist b/c the only people they scare are guilty white morons)
I call them MUSLIMS b/c they killed people under the umbrella of ISLAM and used the words from the MUSLIM "holy" book.

Fact #2---In that "holy" book, it talks about building a shrine at the site of a great conquest!
Fact #3--That so called American loving MUSLIM preacher, refused to honor the wishes of the families of the people that were slaughtered by MUSLIMS.
Fact #4-- Nobody was denying or attempting to deny the MUSLIM preacher an opportunity to build a MUSLIM worship center.
They simply asked for some compassion about where the MUSLIMS were DEMANDING to build it.
Fact #5--The MUSLIM preacher has a very questionable history and is on record for blaming America for the MUSLIM groups slaughter of thousands of innocent people.
Fact#6--Muslims kill muslims on a daily basis..I don't care if there were muslims that got killed on 9-11, it does not change the fact that MUSLIMS killed thousands of people.
Fact #7--Allowing the MUSLIMS to build that shrine is not a sign of tolerance with a giant welcome mat, it is a PURE SIGN OF EMBARRASSING WEAKNESS and any American willing to embrace this, needs his head caved in.
You are not showing the world how understanding you are, you are showing the world that you are a useless coward that can accept the slaughter of innocents as long as we progress.


As for anyone trying to understand my side of things.
It is very simple.
I will never stick my head up the azz of the enemy and beg him to be friends.
The muslims religion is not the only religion that has major issues, but it is the only religion that has an enormous body count to go along with the issues.

You can claim, it is just a few chuckle heads, but the numbers tell a different story.
The same people that run around screaming to protect Islam are the same exact people that claim that the Catholic church had a huge problem with baby raping priest.
Typical hypocrites...

As I have stated before..I don't give a sh!t if you are "offended", that I call the people that are killing innocent people on a daily basis MUSLIMS..why do I call them MUSLIMS?
THEY CALL THEMSELVES MUSLIMS AND KILL UNDER THE UMBRELLA OF THE MUSLIM RELIGION CALLED ISLAM, a religion that is based on:
HATE
RAPE
CHILD RAPE
MURDER
TORTURE
COMPLETE CONTROL
BIGOTRY
RACISM

Read the book...
If pointing out the facts is wrong to some of you..maybe you need to change your thinking and stop believing that the "religion of peace" is about tolerance and understanding and love.

One last night...

FUCH EUROPE!
Why are so many Americans in love with a fuched up society controlled by a bunch of Pansy azz cowards too scared to defend themselves against anyone without the United States?

France and Germany are prime examples of not how to behave.


http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

The US love affair with Europe should have ended after WWI. Why this country is so fascinated with Europe is beyond me. The cold hard fact is Argentina, Chile and Mexico were very prosperous countries in 1900 rivaling many of the European countries yet all we have done over the past 150 years is piss on all the countries south of the Rio Grande. If we had stuck with the Monroe Doctrine and fostered those relationships with countries that ACTUALLY wanted to be our friends we would have been WAY better off. The natural resources to include oil, minerals, gold, silver, coal and rare earth minerals South of the border would have made us great trading partners.

Instead we send in the CIA to kill whoever wont do our bidding, create a huge underground drug economy that is killing 10s of thousands of people on an annual basis and have created corrupt military dictatorships who valued our free very large sums of money to do business with us at the expense of the local population.

_____________________________________________
January 6,1991: The last post season victory for the Bengals.

What's sad about Europe is that they have the potential to take us down with them and go back into recession. Germany and Switzerland are the stronger of the countries but thay are the best houses in a wretched neighborhood. I think it's sink or swim time for Greece but Spain and Italy may be next in line. If we are dragged back into recession by Europe there will be more unrest here for sure.

"A majority of New Yorkers oppose plans to build a mosque and Muslim cultural center two blocks from Ground Zero, according to a Quinnipiac University Poll released Thursday."


Yeah--have fun finding somebody to build it. har har har.

The joke's on you, Muslims. Have fun finding that building contractor that will agree to that. They know it will be the last job on earth that they will have.

Better make sure it's in the hundreds of millions.





"So he got fired? Big deal. It's happened to the best of us. So he got kicked out of his house by his 400 lb'ed wife?!?!? That's probably better for him anyways."-OldSchooler on ChrisMBHater's absence

I say we start taking bets when Murf climbs the bell tower and starts shooting people. You are so far gone my friend.....

Homey - that was a bad example. Look no further than the Alabama fan who placed poison on the trees on the Auburn campus. (Toomers corner I believe) It was one lone rogue lunatic. And there was plenty of support, sympathy, and donations from the Bama Alumni. You blanket the entire UM - not MU - alumni and faculty like you are trying to blanket the entire muslim population.

How many times do we have to have this debate that not all Muslims are terrorist and not all Muslims hate America. Do you guys know any Muslims? I would bet you dont - and therefore base your opinion on what you hear on Fox. Diversify yourself and meet some people of other races.

I have worked with many middle eastern and muslim among my stops in Chicago and Dallas - here in Columbus we have one of the largest Somalian populations in the Country. They love the USA and they love Allah.

Diversity...... its not a lower division university.

T

"Homey - that was a bad example. Look no further than the Alabama fan who placed poison on the trees on the Auburn campus. (Toomers corner I believe) It was one lone rogue lunatic. And there was plenty of support, sympathy, and donations from the Bama Alumni. You blanket the entire UM - not MU - alumni and faculty like you are trying to blanket the entire muslim population. "

T, you guys just don't get it. It is a good example. The case you gave, "here was plenty of support, sympathy, and donations from the Bama Alumni" thats the key. They didn't try and build a welcome center where the incident happened. Sympathy was far and few in between after 9/11. All I rememeber was them b!tching about us stereotyping, no sympathy. Yea there was some, but don't try and equate the sympathy from Bama to the symapthy from the Muslims.

By the way, the first gulf was was the disaster, the 2nd was the inevitabe conclusion.

The Swiss are actually having some serious issues as a result of being economically sound. Their currency (not using EURO) is being bought at massive levels by outsiders who value its strength. The result is the Swiss Franc has dramatically increased in value making Swiss exports VERY expensive with its trading partners. The Chinese artificially hold the value of its currency low so they dont have the same problem.

At some point the Germans will say enough is enough and bail on the Euro. Germany has become the EURO version of the Federal reserve as the beggar nations continue to ask for more free money which of course, Germany has the most of.

_____________________________________________
January 6,1991: The last post season victory for the Bengals.

Welcome back SF2. I've always appreciated your insights.

The MURF signal started flashing outside my window 2 nights ago and I felt I had to return in an attempt to drag him back over to the side of reason.

I try not to preface any statement with most or all unless we are discussing the sucktitude of any player on the Stealers or Cleveland Browns fans.

_____________________________________________
January 6,1991: The last post season victory for the Bengals.

Yes, welcome back, SF2.

We dont always see eye to eye, but I am always interested in your opinion.

You are the one that explained oil speculation as it relates to the rise/fall of gas prices and how it was not correct to blame the POTUS (Bush at the time) for high gas prices.





"Insert witty quotation here"

I am not shocked at the sorry azz attempt at a response given by a guilty white guy.
Instead of playing the typical liberal game of calling anyone that questions the insanity some type of angry nut job, why not dispute the facts given.

We all know why you will not dispute the facts, but it would be fun to watch you give it a good ol college try.

Once again...who said anything about all muslims being guilty of slaughtering innocent people to promote their religion?
I certainly did not say that, but I did call out the MUSLIMS that are killing people and the muslim preachers who never seem to denounce the murderous actions of their own people.
Why on earth would you not call them out?

The most annoying part about the pansie liberal type, is that they get off by stereotyping.
I mentioned the Catholic Church and the child raping priest.
Very few in number, but the perception is it was wide spread.
I walked away from the church, not because a few useless humans took advantage of children and destroyed their lives, but at the lack of concern or response by the church leaders.
I lost all respect for that religion because of the leaders.

I will even point out the sorry azz Klan.
If I claimed to belong to this group, the liberal type will scream racist and even some of the normal people would slowly walk away b/c the perception is that the group supports hate and has blood on their hands.

So what is different with the muslim religion?
Do they not have blood on their hands?
Do you ever hear of the so called leaders denouncing murder/rape/torture/civil rights violations/human rights violations/slavery?
Some will denounce a coward attack, but you seldom ever hear about them denouncing the rest of the problems.

I don't understand the obsession with you liberal types to circle the wagons around a religious group that has some serious issues and an agenda.

Read the Koran/Quran however you want to spell it or say it.( I have read a large portion of it)


I have worked with many muslims and I have had a pretty good relationship with most of them.




http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

I have worked with many muslims and I have had a pretty good relationship with most of them. ~Murf

Then you should know that they are not all of one mind to blow up your beloved Country.

T

"A majority of New Yorkers oppose plans to build a mosque and Muslim cultural center two blocks from Ground Zero, according to a Quinnipiac University Poll released Thursday."

I have no problem with that as long as it's on their dime and not taxpayers money and out of respect to 911 locate it some distance away - a mile perhaps.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE - 9/11/01

U.S. MUSLIMS CONDEMN TERRORIST ATTACKS

(WASHINGTON, DC - 9/11/2001) - The American Muslim Political Coordination Council (AMPCC), today condemned the apparent terrorist attacks in New York and Washington and offered condolences to the families of those who were killed or injured.

The AMPCC statement read in part:

"American Muslims utterly condemn what are apparently vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts."

Leaders of the American Muslim Political Coordination Council (AMPCC) held a meeting in Washington, DC, on Tuesday, September 11, 2001, to issue the following points related to the terrorist attacks:

1) We assert unequivocal condemnation based on our religious values and our identity as American Muslims;

2) We do not need to defend every maniacal incident emanating from the Muslim world or the Muslim community, just as other religious groups need not defend their extremists;

3) We offer compassion to the victims and solidarity with all Americans in the face of danger;

4) Notwithstanding the disbelief that anyone following the faith of Islam could commit such a heinous crime, we condemn the act regardless of the identity of the perpetrators;

5) We deplore the irresponsible reporting that twists the realities and complexities of the Muslim world in order to project only anti-American sentiment during this disturbing period when we are all attempting to move beyond the state of mourning for the national tragedy;

6) We warn against opportunists who will exploit the misery and hysteria of the public in order to promote a political agenda aimed at tarnishing the name of Islam and Muslims;

7) We should not diminish our resolve to be active in protecting the civil liberties of all Americans and struggling for justice both locally and globally;

8) We need to organize activities to help the victims medically, psychologically and in every other way we can.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

American Muslim Alliance (AMA) Condemns Terrorist Attack

(Newark, California: 9/11/01) The American Muslim Alliance, a national civic education organization, condemned today's terrorist attacks in New York and Washington in the "strongest terms".

Dr. Agha Saeed, the national Chair of the American Muslim Alliance, Stated:

"These attacks are against both divine and human laws and we condemn them in the strongest terms. The Muslim Americans join the nation in calling for swift apprehension and stiff punishment of the perpetrators, and offer our sympathies to the victims and their families."



"Insert witty quotation here"

You're the constant whiner, Murf, which relates to why you make garbage up.

No one on here compared 9-11 to boy-raping priests. But even though most everyone in the civilized world condems child-molesting priests, no one I know of suggest that Catholics can't build places of worship.

But what got you b1tched last time was your comment that the New York Islamic Center was somehow dedicated to the 9-11 terrorists. That was a lie. You were exposed. You pouted for a day or so and then you tried to spin straw man issues into the issue, like priests.

It's America. Americans don't restrict lawful religious expression. You don't have to go to the center, but you have no right to infringe on its construction. Neither do the politicians in New York.

Being adults and being American, New York politicians aren't making a decision to allow the center. They're just not making an anti-American decision to deny it.

You're constant quest for phony outrage is boundless....but most always is comical.

"I did call out the MUSLIMS that are killing people and the muslim preachers who never seem to denounce the murderous actions of their own people.
Why on earth would you not call them out?"

How is this any different than calling the KKK a bunch of "whiteys" when they were lynching people. After all, they were ALL white, did it in the name of being white, and not all white people were denouncing their actions, so then referring to what they did as the actions of "white people" was perfectly legit huh? Even though many white people were against it?

This to me is the exact same thing.

"We do do, and we do it at a very, very high level," Lewis said.

Oh boy...where to start..
How about with the most arrogant d-bag on this site.

You're the constant whiner, Murf, which relates to why you make garbage up.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DID MUSLIMS SLAUGHTER INNOCENT PEOPLE?
YES!

DO MUSLIMS BUILD A SHRINE AT THE SITE OF THEIR GREATEST CONQUEST?
YES!

Did I say anyone on here compared 9-11 to child raping priest?
NO!

Did I say that the muslims should be denied a permit to build a so called house of worship?
NO!

Did I say that we should not allow muslims to worship or restrict them in anyway shape or form?
NO!

Where is the "made up garbage"?

Once again, you come on here and try your cowardly liberal tactics and once again, I am here to call you out on it.
I never said the center was going to be dedicated to anyone.
You are the d-bag that makes sh!t up!
I live in the real world, not some utopian dream world.

As I have stated a million times:
I don't care if they build a church or "community center" and I don't care if they practice their religion and don't even have a problem with the morons that bust out the bow tie and hand out their version of the "witness pamphlet"
They have a right to worship whoever they want to worship as long as it follows the rules and guidelines of society in America.
The question is simple:
Why did they insist on building the church that close to ground zero?
If this d-bag wanted to bring the community together, then why didn't he take the free building or the cheaper building further away from the site?

Don't hurt yourself thinking about it, because it is a pretty simple answer.
HE WANTED A SHRINE...HE WANTED TO PLANT THAT MUSLIM SYMBOL RIGHT IN THE HEART OF THE NORMAL THINKING AMERICAN CITIZENS.
He is a muslim preacher that follows the muslim religion and in their so called bible, it preaches hate of non-believers, so how on earth is this muslim preacher going to "bring" the community together when his rules state to hate?

BTW--
Never talk about the constitution.
Your type hate that stupid set of rules and guidelines.




Bronco--
Seriously?
You busted some self serving horse sh!t?
As I stated, they will toss out a few words after a major coward attack to make the liberals gush about them, but you don't see too many of them denouncing 8-9 year old little girls being sold as sex slaves on a daily basis.
You don't hear a peep from them about forcing women to wear a sheet and then beat and stone them to death.

Cinci---
Don't even get me started on the racial stereotyping.
My point was clear.
Liberals hate when a so called "minority" group is stereotyped but have no problem stereotyping Christians and mainly white christian groups.





http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

"Perfect example is New York and because they support a shrine that celebrates the slaughter of innocents..."~Murf.

That is a pure, clear, undeniable example of you being a whiner and a liar, Murf. Your outrage is as phony as it is imbecilic.

Those that are building (or have built) the Islamic Center are Americans. America doesn't deny lawful religious expression.

I didn't visit the Islamic Center Site. I could rhetorically ask you for some substantiation of the claim that New Yorkers are supporting "a shrine that celebrates the slaughter of innocents." But then I or someone would have to explain to you what the word substantiate means. and it would most likely never sink in.

Murf, you're the dolt who keeps on giving doltisms. No wonder you're so constantly mad at the world. It must seem to you like everyone is laughing at you.

They're not. Sometimes they're laughing at other whackjobs as well.

New York Islamic Center was somehow dedicated to the 9-11 terrorists. That was a lie!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Again, you are twisting the words to play your cowardly games.

I said:

"Perfect example is New York and because they support a shrine that celebrates the slaughter of innocents"

Where did I say that they dedicated a shrine to terrorist?

You refuse to answer the questions (shocking).

Again, I deal with real life and real life explains things in simple terms:

#1 Muslim cowards killed thousands of people in New York.

#2 A muslim preacher that blamed America for the cowards actions wanted to build a so called community center around the site of the cowardly attacks.

#3 After people found out about this and many in the community and across the country were outraged, several groups offer to give the preacher a free or less expensive place to build that community center.

#4 Nobody is telling this preacher or anyone in the muslim religion that they do not have the right to build a church, practice their cult or dance naked with pigs or whatever gives them some spiritual guidance.

#5 Families of the tragedy just simply asked to not have it there, but the preacher insisted that the building had to be there.

Now, from a business stand point, it makes no sense to not take one of the other sites.
From a community outlook, it would have looked better if they took one of the other sites.





http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

For crying out loud, you nimrod, your quote is the hallmark of your undenialable lie. Your infintile spin is a pathetic attempt to pad your lies and your quest for phony outrage.

"Perfect example is New York and because they support a shrine that celebrates the slaughter of innocents"

New York politicians gave zip xupport to a shrine that supports the slaughter of innocents. The Islamic Community Center erected no shrine that supports the slaughter of innocents. The Islamic Community Center made no statement that intends to erect a shrine that supports the slaughter of innocents.

You are such a pathetic combination of a xenophobe and anti-First Ammendement America hater that you rebroadcast your lie while you squeel that you weren't telling lies.

I ask again....where is the substantiation that a shrine that celebrates the slaughter of innocents?

crickets. crickets.

Stop humiliating yourself, Murf.

"#1 Muslim cowards killed thousands of people in New York."

White cowards killed thousands of black people in the south.

Therefore, white people should not be allowed to build things in the south, especially if the black people don't want them to. It's disrespectful.

"We do do, and we do it at a very, very high level," Lewis said.

Well done Hook.....l

Cincy - very good point

I honestly hope the fuch they don't give you real bullets when you get to patrol the corn fields because you could seriously hurt yourself.

THE FUCHING BUILDING IS THE SHRINE!!!!!!!!
Do some research on the subject before you continue to embarrass yourself and your feminine little followers you have.
Do they have a big fuching trophy on top of a building?
NO..
Look up the 3 greatest conquest and tell me what is at all 3!

WOW!

To the pathetic guilty white idiot....
The klan comment just embarrassed yourself, your family and anyone that has ever called you a friend.

Why don't you and Trooper have one of your moments in time and do some research together on the subject.
You can look up the number of dead bodies and he can look up how great the muslim religion is.


I WILL SAY THIS ONE MORE TIME AND TYPE IN BIG LETTERS.

NOBODY IS TRYING TO DENY THE MUSLIMS THE ABILITY TO PRACTICE THEIR CULT.
HAVE AT IT!




http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

Homey - cincy was talking about the SOUTH...THE USA SOUTH...not South American.

Murf - you need more hugs in your life.

jeez, that makes sense, don't know how I read that wrong.

It's OK T, reading comprehension isn't everyone's strong suit

I think I am getting too good at pushing your guys' buttons. White people in the south were in fact directly responsible for the death of thousands of black folk during the good ol' days of slavery. You can deny it if you'd like, but that would put you squarely in Mahmoud Ahmadinejad territory, the "president" of Iran that denies the Holocaust.

So, using Murf's logic that people that are a certain something (Muslim/white) and do something awful in the name of being that something (Muslim/white) should be referred to as that something, then "white people" are responsible for the deaths of innocent black people in the south, not individuals.

It's not about holding individuals accountable, right Murf, but about calling a spade a spade. So white people are murdering cowards that rape children and torture and enslave others. Not some white people, not specific white people, but just white people. Right? I'm just following your logic here, just like the Muslims were the cowards that killed Americans on 9/11, not individual terrorists.

As far as my "white guilt," I knew you guys would be coming all over each other to make the "white guilt" accusation, since it's like your fourth favorite political-discussion maneuver, right after blaming Democrats/Obama/Socialism for everything, blaming political correctness for everything, and telling us all how victimized you are by the government. But I can assure you I feel no guilt nor do I feel complicit in slavery.

In fact, that was my whole point. You calling the 9/11 hijackers Muslims implies a guilt of all Muslims, as if being Muslim was the defining, fundamental reason they hijacked the planes (as opposed to, say, the fact that they were a bunch of misguided, delusional assholes who made f'd up decisions and are rotten scum). Other Muslims shouldn't have to feel guilty about 9/11 no more than you or I should feel guilty about slavery.

Since you go into a frothing rage when people bring up the collective guilt of white people (as was just demonstrated), I assume you are for holding individuals accountable instead of entire races/nationalities/genders/whatever. Or maybe you think no one was responsible for slavery, it "just happened?"

Either 9/11 was perpetrated by "Muslims" and slavery by "White people," or both were perpetrated by individuals, or you are a big hypocrite that applies a different standard to people different than you.

"We do do, and we do it at a very, very high level," Lewis said.

If anyone is actually interested in the facts in question here, (Which is more violent, bible or koran?) you should check out my buddy Steve Wells site:http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com.

See for yourselves. Stop guessing. And for you Murf, quit pretending to know things you clearly do not know.

Mikey is cleverer than you think.

It's OK T, reading comprehension isn't everyone's strong suit

I think I am getting too good at pushing your guys' buttons. White people in the south were in fact directly responsible for the death of thousands of black folk during the good ol' days of slavery. You can deny it if you'd like, but that would put you squarely in Mahmoud Ahmadinejad territory, the "president" of Iran that denies the Holocaust.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
#1 Nobody knows the number of people the Klan killed, depending on who you are reading the numbers are either exaggerated to the extreme or very low to hide the ugly the truth.
I did not live in the South back in the day, so I have no idea what the actual numbers are, but I would venture the say that it took years and years to hit the thousand mark.
The Muslims killed thousands in a few hours.
Muslims have killed more people in a month than the klan has in the last 70 years.

The Klan had more ghost stories more than anything else.


So, using Murf's logic that people that are a certain something (Muslim/white) and do something awful in the name of being that something (Muslim/white) should be referred to as that something, then "white people" are responsible for the deaths of innocent black people in the south, not individuals.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wrong!
Religion is not a race!

You are failing on epic levels here.

You decide to join a cult...you don't decide what your race is.

Race don't have a book to follow..


Every single adult muslim in the world can make a choice not be a member of that cult or force change within that cult.
American Muslims have no excuse to sit on their hands.











http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

Dang it you guys.....your using FACTS.... You know damn well Murf doesn't comprehend FACTS .... You just had to take it to a higher level didn't you?

First of all, slavery is undeniably evil. But let's not fool ourselves into thinking that slavery is the bastard child of the white devils alone. Indeed, African tribes were slaughtering and/or enslaving other African tribes for centuries before the first slave ships arrived. I'll also point out that thousands of these hated white devils died in a brutal civil war to stop slavery. Slavery has never been confined to racial lines. All races are guilty of it, and all races have mostly overcome it.

You know whats sad about the perception of slaves, Muhammad Ali is a shinning example. He rejected his "slave name" Cassius Clay only to choose a name from a society that was just as guilty in the slave trade. Blacks going back to their roots picking Muslim names are really ignorant of their history.

JB, I completely agree. I was being tongue-in-cheek to make my point.

Slavery is no more something "perpetrated by whites" than terrorism is something "perpetrated by Muslims." Slavery predates the American South, just like terrorism predates the Islamic religion. I was following Murf's logic in an attempt to show him that to associate one directly with the other, in either case, is fallacious. Since the slavery is not just a "white devil thing" is so clear, I was hoping it would be easy to see the parallel that terrorism is not simply a Muslim thing either.

"We do do, and we do it at a very, very high level," Lewis said.

other than Murf and Homey's posts and right wing whack job websites, I have not seen any evidence that the mosque was meant to be a "shrine" or "trophy".

Sometimes if you make something up and keep saying it over and over again, you will start to believe its true.
despite no factual evidence to back it up.

On a related note, I cant believe the state of Hawaii allows Japanese people to open Japanese restaurants on Oahu.
The restaurant is clearly a shrine to Kamikaze pilots.

"Insert witty quotation here"

You silly little liberal types are a chuckle a minute.
Dangerously slow, but still entertaining at times.

You are so hypocritical that you don't even know where you stand anymore.
How can you defend a cult that preaches hate for everything that you defend?
LOL..


Facts:


The Koran (018:021) states: 'Build a building over them, their Lord knows best about them;' and those who prevailed in their affair said, 'We will surely make a mosque over them.'


{We caused them to be discovered, to let everyone know that GOD's promise is true, and to remove all doubt concerning the end of the world. The people then disputed among themselves regarding them. Some said, "Let us build a building around them." Their Lord is the best knower about them. Those who prevailed said, "We will build a place of worship around them."}


The al Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem is built on top of one of the holiest sites in Judaism, the Temple Mount.


The former St. Sophia's Basilica, once the world's largest cathedral and orthodox patriarchal basilica, was torn down and replaced with the principal mosque of Istanbul.


The Cordoba mosque in Spain was a former Christian cathedral. Muslims have engaged in this practice for centuries, symbolizing their victories over the infidels.

Anymore questions?

Tittr---
These are facts, not opinions.
I know it is hard for you to understand the difference, but if you try hard enough, one day you will understand.

Cinc---
Only pathetic guilty white people think slavery was a white thing.
You still don't understand the difference between RACE and belonging to a cult.







http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

Only pathetic guilty white people think slavery was a white thing.
You still don't understand the difference between RACE and belonging to a cult.

There is a big difference between Middle Easterners being born into Islam and a 'cult.'

Even if you are athiest/agnostic/etc (ex-Catholic I think is where you would quantify yourself, murf), living in Western society YOU were born into a Judeo-Christian society. Even if you have shunned religion by personal choice so much of your daily life is dictated by Judeo-Christian values. Even a lot of our government fundamentals stem from Protestantism and Lutheranism.

Eastern society is very much influenced by the religion of Islam the same way that Western society is influenced by Judeo-Christian values. That doesn't make it a cult. If you want to proclaim that all religions are cults (you are wrong of course) but if you want to make that claim then Europe and the Americas and any of the European/US imperial colonies throughout the world are all Judeo-Christian cult members (even you because you were born a Catholic and live in the US) just as all Middle Easterners are in the "cult" of Islam.

The other irony here of course is that George W. Bush, who declared the 'war on terror', declared the Islam religion as a "religion of peace," while Barrack Obama, labeled by the right as 'soft on terror' has never said such a thing.

So let me get your "FACTS" straight....... The Muslim religion is a CULT??


Please tell me your kids get tutored....

t

Ps....nice copy and paste job from wiki

Wyche, I agree that was phony of Bush but remember, Obama decided War on Terror offended the terrorists so he decided to call it Overseas Contingency Operation. Can't even call them terrorists, that's the liberal pc way.

Wyche...

I have been calling all religions a cult for a very long time.
There is no difference between a cult and a religion.

I walked away from religion because I witnessed hypocrisy on an epic scale and when you pull back the layers of bullsh!t, religion is all about 2 things...power and money.

As for the muslims...of course that is the way of their life, because the cult leaders rape/torture and kill you if you are a non-believer.
If you are an american and you follow the muslim cult, you have no excuse.
You can leave that cult any time you want.

Trust me..I feel the same way about all religions, the only difference between Islam and the rest is that Islam has group of people involved in their cult that kill/rape/torture/enslave/rape children ect.. and society seems to accept that as just a part of it.
It is ok to allow these things to happen because we don't want to offend anyone that follows the cult.


http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

I'm not 100% sure you can call all religions cults. I think of a cult where they literally take over and control a person's life like the Jim Jones's cult. There was a big problem with cults in this country in that young people were sucked in and controlled, indoctrinated and wrested away from their families. I don't think most religions in this country are like that.

Every time there is an election, the Muslims choose terrorists. Where do you guys get the 1% of 1% number?

It was announced today that the Muslim Brotherhood won the Egyptian election. One of the first things the new leader announced was, "Our capital will be Jerusalem, Allah willing."

He also said he would represent all Egyptians, including Christians and Muslims.

We'll see.



"Insert witty quotation here"

No Murf, that is your opinion.

Your opinion is that the mosque would be built as a trophy. We dont believe it will be a "trophy or shrine".

Muslims build thousands of buildings a year. Are they all trophies? Are they all ahrines?

You cherry pick 2 examples where they built religious building on top of the ruins of other buildings and then claim it to be a trophy or shrine. Then, you claim the same must be true for 9/11. Your proof? Because you said so. SIGH...

All of this is YOUR OPINION. Its not a FACT.

Hey Murf, here is a clue for you. NYC already has mosques in it.
Its not like this is the first one. Its not the last one either.



"Insert witty quotation here"

Easy JB, only 1% of 1% think that way. LOL, you know its more than guilty whites, its guilty Western Civilization. Smucks.

and Obama thought this whole revolution was a good thing. Was I the only one who knew they would elect a terrorist? At least with Mubarak, there as relative peace. Way to go Muslims, but don't worry, we have plenty of sympathizers here in the West with their excuses lined up.

Wow, I didn't even finish the post and the first Guilty Western Civ came up with the first excuse. It would be funny if I didn't share the he11 you guys create.

Yup, the MB is just another group like Al Queda, the Taliban and Bin Laden's minions.

Wait, Al queda and Bin Laden both hated the MB? They hated them because of their desire to change Islamic culture through democratic elections and not through violent Jihad?

But, but, but, but...

Hey, dont get me wrong. The MB's stance on women is probably a throwback to the 1500's. However, these folks do not mix well with the people that hate us the most. And they are very pro democracy.

They also dont much care for Israel. That is a shocker in the Mid-East.
But to compare them to Al Queda, Taliban and Bin Laden, that is simply inaccurate.

"Insert witty quotation here"

We are on a roll.

First we go to war twice in Iraq to fight the only guy who was willing to bloody the nose of the REAL problem in the middle east: Iran. Iraq WAS the most progressive country in the region besides Israel and Turkey, soon it will deteriorate into something else I can't predict.

Second, we help over throw the only guy who was sort of at peace with Israel, Mubarak of Egypt. What exactly was our problem with Egypt compared to the other nations in the area? Yeah, not exactly a guy Jefferson would have had a beer or hit the links with but at least he wasn't stirring the pot. Best part is we actually thought the long haired hippies in Egypt that wanted a true democracy were the guys who were going to gain power. Humorous at best, scary at worst. Keep in mind pissing on Israel is the best way for a Muslim leader to distract away from what is usually the real problems the country has. Blaming Israel is like blaming Bush for every problem.

Third, we continue to pretend we can rebuild a country, Afghanistan, that is led by a corrupt leader the people don't trust and is home to uneducated opium farmers who hate foreigners (for good reason. Lets not forget all the Benjamins that are being sent there that disappear faster than a 15 year old being chased by some middle aged dad after he sees him toilet papering his house.

Fourth, we continue to pretend the UN is capable of doing anything in regards to Syria and Abbas (Now this guy is a real problem) and actually think the Syrian people trust the UN to do the right thing. NOBODY who lives in a third world country TRUSTS or RESPECTS the UN. Why should they? What has the UN done lately to gain any trust in the region? A little bit of intelligence and one well aimed smart bomb could end this issue rather quickly. I don't know what would replace Abbas but he is a murderous bastard that turned Lebanon into a war zone. You can't even get near the Countryside YMCA without an escort anymore.

Fifth, our illustrious leader was totally owned by Vladmir Putin of Russia at the recent G20 meeting and Obama actually held a press conference with him AFTER he told him to f off. Now China AND Russia are running around doing what they want and laughing at us.

Sixth, we ship 2000 weapons we can not track into our next door neighbor without telling them which results in hundreds dead to include 1 US Border guard. Just imagine if Mexico returned the favor and shipped 2000 weapons to the street gang members of LA, St Louis, DC or Chicago without informing our President? Can you imagine the uproar?

Yep, its been a great run.









_____________________________________________
January 6,1991: The last post season victory for the Bengals.

You are pretending that all 3 buildings being a shrine is my opinion.
Google it..not my opinion but a basic fact of life.
Cordoba spain...look it up.
Then please try and explain to everyone why they named the mosque at ground zero the CORDOBA HOUSE..
LOL..

Yes, there are many places of worship in New York and around the country and not too many people care oustide of the private neighborhoods where they are being built or have been built and that is exactly why this screams of a problem.
The main guy refused to build it elswhere despite the outcry from the families of the people that were slaughtered for nothing.

Why was it so important to build a mosque at that location?

As for our foriegn policy, it is a joke.
It will always be a joke as long as we continue to feed the problem with money and resources.
We send money to countries like Egypt that seldom back us.
We play kiss and tickle with countries that should be told to get in line or feel the wrath.
Pakistan should have been put int their place decades ago.

The cult/religion
By your definition of a cult, that pretty much nails Islam as a cult.





http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

"Was I the only one who knew they would elect a terrorist?"

Homey, I see you've come to light on Bush's war of choice with Iraq. As USC said, Hussein wasn't much of a threat, and the Neo-Conservative theory that once we established one Democracy in the Middle East it would flourish and spread the free market ideology to the rest of the nations who would soon be watching "Is this guy the fattest loser ever" or whatever crap reality TV show is on these days and happily sharing their oil with us was a total farce.

Yep, what a stupid waste of billions of dollars based on a totally naive read of geo-political realities.

As for Egypt, seems to me the writing was on the wall for Mubarak and the thinking was to be on the right side of the almost inevitable outcome, as opposed to starting things off terribly with the new regime. No one here seriously thinks we should have supported Mubarak in crushing the uprising right? Even if he was relatively friendly toward Israel, supplying dictators with cash and weapons to kill his own citizens would have surely earned Obama even more much criticism (and been a disgusting and immoral act), especially since conservatives love to be on both sides of every issue, ready to pounce whether he does something or doesn't do anything (In Syria he has screwed up by doing nothing, in Egypt for not doing enough. In Afghanistan this has become "Obama's war," according to right-wingers, but in Iraq he should have "finished the job." It's so easy to play arm-chair Commander in Chief isn't it?)

"We do do, and we do it at a very, very high level," Lewis said.

"On a related note, I cant believe the state of Hawaii allows Japanese people to open Japanese restaurants on Oahu.
The restaurant is clearly a shrine to Kamikaze pilots. "

lol, game, set, match huh Bronco? Maybe if Japan tried to build a Shinto Shrine next to the Arizona Memorial, not a place to eat sushi across the harbor. Bad example.

Speaking of Pearl Harbor, I cruised through my daughters history book, The Unfinished Nation by Alan Brinkley. This guy should be thrown in jail. WWII started for the US because we were uncompromising and forced Japan to attack. lol. Proof of this was that FDR knew the attack was coming, and you want to know the source? "an unidentified seaman" said so. No mention of the Rape of Nanking but the internment of Japanease? ....covered.

"You are pretending that all 3 buildings being a shrine is my opinion.
Google it..not my opinion but a basic fact of life.
Cordoba spain...look it up.
Then please try and explain to everyone why they named the mosque at ground zero the CORDOBA HOUSE..
LOL.."

Alright, Murf-in-stock, lets talk history.

The Spanish Muslims ran Spain from the 700's through the 1200's.
The Catholics then took over again after this (Renconquista).

The mosque Murf is referring to was originally constructed as a PAGAN temple.
The Christians crushed that plan and made it one of their churches.
When the Muslims took over Spain in the 700's, they converted the church into a Mosque. However, they also allowed Christians and Catholics to worship there as well.
When the Catholics took Spain back from the Muslims, they converted the maosque back into a church. However, they did not allow the Muslims to pray there. Any Muslim that attempted to worship there was not greeted kindly.

Today the area is still a Church. Spain did not allow Muslims to pray there even as a few years ago.

Adding all of this up, Apparently Murf thinks that the American Muslims and the Spanish Muslims of over 1000 years ago have some sort of solidarity and are still upset that the Catholics converted what the Muslims converted which ironically the Christians converted.

Got it? I didnt think so.

Its the fukking retarded and it doesnt make sense.
I am not suprised at what my research told me.

Murf, are you serious?
This is like crazy conspriacy whack job crap.
Are you a birther too?
Do you also think Strippers like you?

LOL

"Insert witty quotation here"

Hey now...don't tell some of these people on here that strippers are just working you for money..a few of them thought it was true love.
LOL!

No, not a birther.
Honestly don't care where he was born, just want him to move out of the White House.
If it ever came out that he was not legal, it would be too embarrassing to even talk about.

You keep saying that I am the only one who has this opinion.
LMAO!

Trust me, not the only the one!

The 4 Greatest Conquest in Muslim history will have a MOSQUE built there.
I guess that is just pure luck...

I don't know where you got your research from, but non-believers are not allowed in a Mosque.


http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/