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'Obamacare' ruling

June 25 2012 at 6:07 PM
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Synonymous Bengal  (Login CIN-C-STAR)
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Since the ruling should be any day now, thought why not fire up the MBS crowd in advance, eh?

After doing some research this week, it seems to me that the reform in a nutshell is 1) a bunch of (mostly very popular) provisions that eliminate or restrict practices like underwriting, dropping or denying coverage, or implementing caps, and 2) a sizable expansion of Medicaid.

None of the experts on health care policy I've spoken to, and they represented insurers, doctors and citizens, mentioned anything about death panels or all the seeming smoke and mirrors we've heard about.

As far as the individual mandate, it doesn't pass the smell test for most people and I also have reservations, as it certainly seems like an overreach and potentially slippery slope to have the government mandating the purchase of something.

Something interesting I learned today in the Washington Post though, did you know Pres. George Washington signed a bill into law mandating that adult men in fighting condition buy a gun and ammunition? I didn't, and while it makes perfect sense for that time, it is still the federal government telling people what they have to buy. Also mentioned, a law that required shipowners to buy insurance for their seaman, and requiring seaman to pay into hospital insurance, passed in the 1800s. Neither law was struck down in court.

Also, there is a Supreme Court precedent from 1942, Wickard v. Filburn, in which the court ruled against an Ohio wheat farmer that was told how much wheat he could grow on his farm and threatened with a government penalty for every bushel over that amount, even if the wheat never left his family farm. Apparently the logic was that what you grow on your farm can affect "the market" even if you aren't selling it, because at a minimum it affects your demand for the product and therefore has a minute effect on global demand, and so therefore the government can regulate how productive you can be on your own land. The Supreme Court actually upheld this, 70 years ago, and it has been used as a precedent in further rulings. Some legal scholars think it may play a role in this ruling as well.

I think that Wickard ruling is total BS, and the outcome that would most disturb me is if the Supreme court strikes down the mandate but does so in a way that leaves the Wickard precedent in place. Imo that precedent is even more of a government intrusion than a tax penalty for not having insurance. I mean for fudge's sake, how can the government tell you to grow less produce on your farm if it's to feed your family?

Anyway, those are some of the interesting things I've learned, feel free to share what you've learned, or, more likely, flame away...

"We do do, and we do it at a very, very high level," Lewis said.

 
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Homey
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Re: 'Obamacare' ruling

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June 25 2012, 6:39 PM 

It doesn't matter, this bill does not address what causes healthcare to be so expensive, rampant lawyers and their lawsuits and illegal aliens. Address these issues and I will go along with Obamacare.

 
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psychostats
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Re: 'Obamacare' ruling

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June 25 2012, 7:42 PM 

Health care is so expensive because of two primary reasons, neither of which is greedy lawyers. The first is that demand will always be high. The second is that government regulation screwed it up. Why do we only get a big tax break when we buy health insurance through our employers? There's a long history behind that, but it's a terribly dysfunctional approach.

A doctor of mine, a self-described progressive liberal, was generally happy when Obama Care passed. But he had some reservations. "What Obama doesn't seem to realize," he said, "is that the current system works reasonably well for 80% of Americans." Yes, and the clamoring for reform was because it was getting too expensive.

If it holds up, Obama Care will force prices even higher, because more people with low means will have access to more services. And the "80%" with reasonably good health care will have fewer choices, longer waiting periods, and more restrictions. Not to mention higher costs.

My dream scenario is for the SCOTUS to overturn the whole damn thing and for market reforms to be enacted. No, I'm not holding my breath.

 
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Synonymous Bengal
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Re: 'Obamacare' ruling

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June 27 2012, 9:13 PM 

Even though this wasn't exactly a prediction thread, I'll give it a go:

I think the mandate is struck down, but in a way that leaves the door open for Congress to institute a mandate by other means. I think the rest of the law is upheld.

I see Roberts siding with the "Libs," and the decision being hailed as a win for Obama. Scalia writes a blistering dissenting opinion that conservatives trumpet as "the white guy's manifesto."

OK, that last part was a joke, and it really could go either way. That's what makes it so interesting, to me anyway. I wouldn't be totally shocked anywhere in the range of upholding all of it to striking down more than the mandate. I personally think striking down the entire act is a bit of a stretch. Some of the provisions amounted to regulations that I think are on their face constitutional under the commerce clause, considering past rulings, but anything is possible I guess.

"We do do, and we do it at a very, very high level," Lewis said.

 
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Synonymous Bengal
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Re: 'Obamacare' ruling

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June 28 2012, 7:47 AM 

Looks like I was wrong, the whole darn thing was upheld.

"We do do, and we do it at a very, very high level," Lewis said.

 
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Synonymous Bengal
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Re: 'Obamacare' ruling

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June 28 2012, 9:31 AM 

I thought it would be upheld, but I thought it would be 6-3 with Roberts and Kennedy saying yes.

Interestingly, Scalia also had case precedent that increased authority in this realm, but predictably, he waffled.
Obama now has to defend that idea that this is a "tax". That may hurt him worse than if it had been knocked down.

"Insert witty quotation here"

 
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bengalbear
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Re: *

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June 28 2012, 9:35 AM 

It's nice to have Obama care but they don't address fully why health care costs are so high in the first case. Someone on CNBC mentioned lifestyle problems and there are other factors such as administrative costs and malpractice insurance. They need to focus on those and look at lifestyle factors and get people to get in better shape healthwise similar to Germany and Sweeden. Part of this has to be shouldered by the American people themselves as far as lifestyle changes and preventive maintenance.

 
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Homey
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Re: 'Obamacare' ruling

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June 28 2012, 9:38 AM 

What is the extra tax you have to pay to the IRS if you don't have insurance? Has that been established?

 
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Homey
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Re: *

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June 28 2012, 9:39 AM 

But Bear, would you go the course of Bloomberg? I kind of agree with you, sticky issue though.


    
This message has been edited by HomerSaysDoh from IP address 64.132.166.77 on Jun 28, 2012 9:42 AM


 
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Homey
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Re: 'Obamacare' ruling

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June 28 2012, 9:43 AM 

George Washington signed a bill into law mandating that adult men in fighting condition buy a gun and ammunition? I didn't...

How freakin old are you CIN

 
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Bo Jackson
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CNN: always first, sometimes right.

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June 28 2012, 10:34 AM 

Cant take credit for this

[linked image]

 
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ItmightbeJB
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Re: CNN: always first, sometimes right.

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June 28 2012, 11:27 AM 


The price nations pay for turning away from God is to be delivered into the hands of ungodly men. (see Pharoah, Nebuchadneezar, Nero, Hitler, Stalin, etal.

And so it is today. Rest in Peace America, I still love what you were.


 
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Synonymous Bengal
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Re: CNN: always first, sometimes right.

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June 28 2012, 12:04 PM 

Bengalbear,

We have posted on these before, but I will reiterate it to you.

Legal and Malpractice costs are around 2-3% for health care costs.
Its another red herring the Repubs and Doctor's union want you to believe.
Its easy to pick on the victims of malpractice and the trial attorneys, right?
SIGH...

"Insert witty quotation here"

 
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theydey
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Re: CNN: always first, sometimes right.

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June 28 2012, 12:54 PM 

Breaking news!!

Mike Brown has just announced that buying season Bengal tickets is a tax and mandatory. Judge Roberts has just agreed with this ruling.

 
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Hook
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Tax the freeloaders

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June 28 2012, 2:50 PM 

If that "tax" question regards the mandate that you must have insurance, I could care less if it's called a tax or a penalty. It's reasonable and moral.

I've been in and out of too many emergency rooms, especially on police matters. It's disgusting to see all the freeloaders in there getting medical care that they don't pay for.

Their bills are processed and passed along to the rest of us in the form of higher taxes and higher medical care costs in general. The mandate cost is adjusted depending on income level. I think I saw that the freeloaders who get medical care without paying for it and without insurance get dinged a penalty (or tax) of maybe 2.5% of their gross pay or $300, whichever is larger.

I wish I could cite the exact numbers. Maybe Bronco has them. Regardless, let the shameless freeloaders start paying something....for a change.

 
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ItmightbeJB
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Re: Tax the freeloaders

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June 28 2012, 3:52 PM 

Hook, let's hope these freeloaders have valid social security numbers, only one identity they don't share with 50 other folks, real street addresses of the places they actually reside at, genuine telephone numbers, etc. so they can be tracked down after they disappear back into their shadow world.

 
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theydey
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Re: Tax the freeloaders

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June 28 2012, 4:12 PM 

Do you really think that the "freeloaders" will be turned away? Nothing changes here other than more taxpayer money being thrown into the system, more debt, and less freedom.

In fact, who can get a job now? Make no mistake, this hurts job creation and these people WILL NOT be turned away for being freeloaders.

 
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murf
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Re: Tax the freeloaders

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June 28 2012, 4:19 PM 

I am embarrassed to be an american today.

Funny how they refused to call it a tax...until today.

The middle class took a huge dildo in the azz today and that joke of a so called leader is happy about it.
Fuch you and your poor people bullsh!t.
They will CONTINUE to get free health care as they did before.

On the other hand, the people that are fighting to stay above water on a week to week basis, will have more to pay.
The people that want to work but can't find work because these fuchs in office keep feeding the mexicans and other illegals opportunities to work and not taking care of their own, will have to keep making sacrifices.


We have got to get these socialist whack jobs out of power.

I do have a question for you liberal types that champion this.

If I am over qualified for assistance (normal average working family) but I am underemployed and can't afford this tax hike, what on earth are they going to do to me?
If I have to decide to put food on the table or pay for some bullsh!t insurance, I am not even thinking about that decision.
So what happens?

They going to fine me for not having enough money to pay for something?
LOL..
Or jail me?

Well if it comes down to that, why on earth would anyone work?
Just sit on your azz and collect everything for free!!!!!

Do you chuckle heads not understand the damage this fuched up socialism regime is doing to this country?


http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

 
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Storm
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Re: Tax the freeloaders

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June 28 2012, 4:53 PM 

Obama Scam is going to fail and when it does it will knock this country even lower than it is right now, it will force a lot of people living paycheck to paycheck into poverty requiring more govt assistance to help them out.


If it isn't the final nail its one of the nails in the American coffin

------------------------------------------
In Memory of Dunn4QB
[linked image]

 
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bronco
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Re: Tax the freeloaders

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June 28 2012, 5:24 PM 

Storm,

I never pegged you as a fear monger on this kind of crap.
Its going to be fine. The hospitals and ER physicians are happy today.

The impact on small buisnesses will need some fine tuning.
This isnt the end of the legislation. There will be modificiations.

Despite what you guys say, the country will survive.

"Insert witty quotation here"

 
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