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'Obamacare' ruling

June 25 2012 at 6:07 PM
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  (Login CIN-C-STAR)
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Since the ruling should be any day now, thought why not fire up the MBS crowd in advance, eh?

After doing some research this week, it seems to me that the reform in a nutshell is 1) a bunch of (mostly very popular) provisions that eliminate or restrict practices like underwriting, dropping or denying coverage, or implementing caps, and 2) a sizable expansion of Medicaid.

None of the experts on health care policy I've spoken to, and they represented insurers, doctors and citizens, mentioned anything about death panels or all the seeming smoke and mirrors we've heard about.

As far as the individual mandate, it doesn't pass the smell test for most people and I also have reservations, as it certainly seems like an overreach and potentially slippery slope to have the government mandating the purchase of something.

Something interesting I learned today in the Washington Post though, did you know Pres. George Washington signed a bill into law mandating that adult men in fighting condition buy a gun and ammunition? I didn't, and while it makes perfect sense for that time, it is still the federal government telling people what they have to buy. Also mentioned, a law that required shipowners to buy insurance for their seaman, and requiring seaman to pay into hospital insurance, passed in the 1800s. Neither law was struck down in court.

Also, there is a Supreme Court precedent from 1942, Wickard v. Filburn, in which the court ruled against an Ohio wheat farmer that was told how much wheat he could grow on his farm and threatened with a government penalty for every bushel over that amount, even if the wheat never left his family farm. Apparently the logic was that what you grow on your farm can affect "the market" even if you aren't selling it, because at a minimum it affects your demand for the product and therefore has a minute effect on global demand, and so therefore the government can regulate how productive you can be on your own land. The Supreme Court actually upheld this, 70 years ago, and it has been used as a precedent in further rulings. Some legal scholars think it may play a role in this ruling as well.

I think that Wickard ruling is total BS, and the outcome that would most disturb me is if the Supreme court strikes down the mandate but does so in a way that leaves the Wickard precedent in place. Imo that precedent is even more of a government intrusion than a tax penalty for not having insurance. I mean for fudge's sake, how can the government tell you to grow less produce on your farm if it's to feed your family?

Anyway, those are some of the interesting things I've learned, feel free to share what you've learned, or, more likely, flame away...

"We do do, and we do it at a very, very high level," Lewis said.

 
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Homey
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Re: 'Obamacare' ruling

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June 25 2012, 6:39 PM 

It doesn't matter, this bill does not address what causes healthcare to be so expensive, rampant lawyers and their lawsuits and illegal aliens. Address these issues and I will go along with Obamacare.

 
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Re: 'Obamacare' ruling

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June 25 2012, 7:42 PM 

Health care is so expensive because of two primary reasons, neither of which is greedy lawyers. The first is that demand will always be high. The second is that government regulation screwed it up. Why do we only get a big tax break when we buy health insurance through our employers? There's a long history behind that, but it's a terribly dysfunctional approach.

A doctor of mine, a self-described progressive liberal, was generally happy when Obama Care passed. But he had some reservations. "What Obama doesn't seem to realize," he said, "is that the current system works reasonably well for 80% of Americans." Yes, and the clamoring for reform was because it was getting too expensive.

If it holds up, Obama Care will force prices even higher, because more people with low means will have access to more services. And the "80%" with reasonably good health care will have fewer choices, longer waiting periods, and more restrictions. Not to mention higher costs.

My dream scenario is for the SCOTUS to overturn the whole damn thing and for market reforms to be enacted. No, I'm not holding my breath.

 
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Synonymous Bengal
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Re: 'Obamacare' ruling

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June 27 2012, 9:13 PM 

Even though this wasn't exactly a prediction thread, I'll give it a go:

I think the mandate is struck down, but in a way that leaves the door open for Congress to institute a mandate by other means. I think the rest of the law is upheld.

I see Roberts siding with the "Libs," and the decision being hailed as a win for Obama. Scalia writes a blistering dissenting opinion that conservatives trumpet as "the white guy's manifesto."

OK, that last part was a joke, and it really could go either way. That's what makes it so interesting, to me anyway. I wouldn't be totally shocked anywhere in the range of upholding all of it to striking down more than the mandate. I personally think striking down the entire act is a bit of a stretch. Some of the provisions amounted to regulations that I think are on their face constitutional under the commerce clause, considering past rulings, but anything is possible I guess.

"We do do, and we do it at a very, very high level," Lewis said.

 
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Re: 'Obamacare' ruling

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June 28 2012, 7:47 AM 

Looks like I was wrong, the whole darn thing was upheld.

"We do do, and we do it at a very, very high level," Lewis said.

 
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Re: 'Obamacare' ruling

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June 28 2012, 9:31 AM 

I thought it would be upheld, but I thought it would be 6-3 with Roberts and Kennedy saying yes.

Interestingly, Scalia also had case precedent that increased authority in this realm, but predictably, he waffled.
Obama now has to defend that idea that this is a "tax". That may hurt him worse than if it had been knocked down.

"Insert witty quotation here"

 
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Homey
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Re: 'Obamacare' ruling

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June 28 2012, 9:38 AM 

What is the extra tax you have to pay to the IRS if you don't have insurance? Has that been established?

 
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Re: *

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June 28 2012, 9:35 AM 

It's nice to have Obama care but they don't address fully why health care costs are so high in the first case. Someone on CNBC mentioned lifestyle problems and there are other factors such as administrative costs and malpractice insurance. They need to focus on those and look at lifestyle factors and get people to get in better shape healthwise similar to Germany and Sweeden. Part of this has to be shouldered by the American people themselves as far as lifestyle changes and preventive maintenance.

 
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Homey
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June 28 2012, 9:39 AM 

But Bear, would you go the course of Bloomberg? I kind of agree with you, sticky issue though.


    
This message has been edited by HomerSaysDoh from IP address 64.132.166.77 on Jun 28, 2012 9:42 AM
This message has been edited by HomerSaysDoh from IP address 64.132.166.77 on Jun 28, 2012 9:40 AM


 
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Re: 'Obamacare' ruling

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June 28 2012, 9:43 AM 

George Washington signed a bill into law mandating that adult men in fighting condition buy a gun and ammunition? I didn't...

How freakin old are you CIN

 
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Bo Jackson
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CNN: always first, sometimes right.

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June 28 2012, 10:34 AM 

Cant take credit for this

[linked image]

 
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ItmightbeJB
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Re: CNN: always first, sometimes right.

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June 28 2012, 11:27 AM 


The price nations pay for turning away from God is to be delivered into the hands of ungodly men. (see Pharoah, Nebuchadneezar, Nero, Hitler, Stalin, etal.

And so it is today. Rest in Peace America, I still love what you were.


 
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Re: CNN: always first, sometimes right.

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June 28 2012, 12:04 PM 

Bengalbear,

We have posted on these before, but I will reiterate it to you.

Legal and Malpractice costs are around 2-3% for health care costs.
Its another red herring the Repubs and Doctor's union want you to believe.
Its easy to pick on the victims of malpractice and the trial attorneys, right?
SIGH...

"Insert witty quotation here"

 
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theydey
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Re: CNN: always first, sometimes right.

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June 28 2012, 12:54 PM 

Breaking news!!

Mike Brown has just announced that buying season Bengal tickets is a tax and mandatory. Judge Roberts has just agreed with this ruling.

 
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Hook
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Tax the freeloaders

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June 28 2012, 2:50 PM 

If that "tax" question regards the mandate that you must have insurance, I could care less if it's called a tax or a penalty. It's reasonable and moral.

I've been in and out of too many emergency rooms, especially on police matters. It's disgusting to see all the freeloaders in there getting medical care that they don't pay for.

Their bills are processed and passed along to the rest of us in the form of higher taxes and higher medical care costs in general. The mandate cost is adjusted depending on income level. I think I saw that the freeloaders who get medical care without paying for it and without insurance get dinged a penalty (or tax) of maybe 2.5% of their gross pay or $300, whichever is larger.

I wish I could cite the exact numbers. Maybe Bronco has them. Regardless, let the shameless freeloaders start paying something....for a change.

 
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ItmightbeJB
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Re: Tax the freeloaders

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June 28 2012, 3:52 PM 

Hook, let's hope these freeloaders have valid social security numbers, only one identity they don't share with 50 other folks, real street addresses of the places they actually reside at, genuine telephone numbers, etc. so they can be tracked down after they disappear back into their shadow world.

 
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murf
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Re: Tax the freeloaders

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June 28 2012, 4:19 PM 

I am embarrassed to be an american today.

Funny how they refused to call it a tax...until today.

The middle class took a huge dildo in the azz today and that joke of a so called leader is happy about it.
Fuch you and your poor people bullsh!t.
They will CONTINUE to get free health care as they did before.

On the other hand, the people that are fighting to stay above water on a week to week basis, will have more to pay.
The people that want to work but can't find work because these fuchs in office keep feeding the mexicans and other illegals opportunities to work and not taking care of their own, will have to keep making sacrifices.


We have got to get these socialist whack jobs out of power.

I do have a question for you liberal types that champion this.

If I am over qualified for assistance (normal average working family) but I am underemployed and can't afford this tax hike, what on earth are they going to do to me?
If I have to decide to put food on the table or pay for some bullsh!t insurance, I am not even thinking about that decision.
So what happens?

They going to fine me for not having enough money to pay for something?
LOL..
Or jail me?

Well if it comes down to that, why on earth would anyone work?
Just sit on your azz and collect everything for free!!!!!

Do you chuckle heads not understand the damage this fuched up socialism regime is doing to this country?


http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

 
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theydey
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Re: Tax the freeloaders

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June 28 2012, 4:12 PM 

Do you really think that the "freeloaders" will be turned away? Nothing changes here other than more taxpayer money being thrown into the system, more debt, and less freedom.

In fact, who can get a job now? Make no mistake, this hurts job creation and these people WILL NOT be turned away for being freeloaders.

 
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Storm
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Re: Tax the freeloaders

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June 28 2012, 4:53 PM 

Obama Scam is going to fail and when it does it will knock this country even lower than it is right now, it will force a lot of people living paycheck to paycheck into poverty requiring more govt assistance to help them out.


If it isn't the final nail its one of the nails in the American coffin

------------------------------------------
In Memory of Dunn4QB
[linked image]

 
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bronco
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Re: Tax the freeloaders

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June 28 2012, 5:24 PM 

Storm,

I never pegged you as a fear monger on this kind of crap.
Its going to be fine. The hospitals and ER physicians are happy today.

The impact on small buisnesses will need some fine tuning.
This isnt the end of the legislation. There will be modificiations.

Despite what you guys say, the country will survive.

"Insert witty quotation here"

 
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Homey
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Re: Tax the freeloaders

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June 28 2012, 5:44 PM 

"hospitals and ER physicians "
Bronco, I haven't seen stats on just ER docs, but the polls of all doctors I have seen seem to be split, slightly against.

Murf, when life hands you a dildo, just grab the lube. This country wasn't going to right itself regardless of what the SC ruled. Just enjoy the few remaining years before we hit the 3rd world abyss.

 
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Re: Tax the freeloaders

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June 28 2012, 8:01 PM 

You guys are insane. JB, did you really just compare Obama to Stalin and Nero because he required everyone to get health insurance and expanded Medicaid? And did you also just offer judgement on his policies, on God's behalf? So you are God's press secretary on political matters now?

Wow, you guys have really lost it!

Also, health coverage will destroy the nation? Health coverage?!? Not the NDAA, not Homeland Security Department, not unending, unnecessary foreign wars, but health care? Hahahahahaha. Man, the Rush-right has you guys hook, line and sinker.

If you guys really think it's so bad I bet Mexico would take you. If not, you guys seem to think being an illegal is such a great life, I hear it is pretty easy to sneak into Mexico, lol.

"We do do, and we do it at a very, very high level," Lewis said.

 
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Re: Tax the freeloaders

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June 28 2012, 8:21 PM 

I knew something was awry when Roberts came out to help explain his decision. All he would say was, "Who is John Gault?"


In all seriousness, if you play the comments Roberts gave after the decision backward you can hear him say, "Obama, my dark lord and master, your will be done. All those who oppose you shall be crushed!!"

Coincidence?

I just wonder if John can hear the laughter of those he just supported.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7fsf8b1PcM

 
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ItmightbeJB
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Re: Tax the freeloaders

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June 28 2012, 9:18 PM 

CIN-C the point of my post was to bring attention to history, both new testament and old. Every time a nation turned away from God they were delivered to ungodly men. If that fact escaped you then I question your reading comprehension skills. Don't read things into my words that aren't there. As far as Obama is concerned, yes I do think he's evil. I know he's a LIAR. I know he's vindictive (by his own admission) and he's obviously consumed with his own importance to the extent that the words egotism and narcissism fall well short of adequately describing him.

I think this nation is now doomed to be a footnote in history....maybe a whole chapter. I DO agree with you libs when you predict Obama will win re-election though. There's nothing standing in his way now, it's a done deal. Requiring people to purchase healthcare is evil. And as far as illegal immigration is concerned that's evil too. I've spent much of my adult life closely involved in the underworld of illegal immigration and I know what I'm talking about. Frankly, I suspect you don't. The fact that you seem to think it's not a HUGE problem is mystifying to me and should be to anyone born with an ounce of logic. But I guess the MSNBC heads among you guys have been subliminally brainwashed enough to swallow anything this president spews forth. He's little more than a snake oil salesman.

I already know what bronco thinks about God. I've seen him compare God to a pile of excrement on this very site. That's fine if he believes that, it's his right. And it's my right to disagree. So you guys enjoy your victory. Revel in the world you've created. Be happy that Dear Leader has prevailed in his efforts to share the wealth yet again. But pardon me if I don't join the orgy.


 
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Re: Tax the freeloaders

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June 28 2012, 11:16 PM 

Illegal immigration is evil?
Illegal immigration wouldn't matter if people acted right. If everyone was a charitable, courteous Christian we could all live in peace and borders wouldn't matter, but people do evil things. Again, PEOPLE, do bad things. Being an illegal immigrant alone doesn't make someone "evil" in my opinion. You could say it was wrong to come here illegally, but nobody is perfect, that's a basic tenet of Christianity. The people Obama has targeted for temporary amnesty, which is what it is, were brought here without a choice, as children. Were they evil the moment they became illegal immigrants, even if they were babies?

It sounds like you are trying to apply the Bible to contemporary public policy debate, and then taking your conclusions as additional Biblical truth. As if your reasoning skills are as divinely inspired as the Bible itself. No offense JB, maybe that wasn't your intent. But you start throwing around thoughts like people you've never met are evil and entire groups of people are evil and the POTUS is another Stalin, well, that's a whole lot of kind of crazy judgement right there. It seems to me people should be careful in concluding that because they've read the Bible they are as capable of casting judgement as God himself.

Perhaps I'm wrong here though, I don't claim to be a theologian, but I have been to church and I honestly couldn't tell you if I've ever watched MSNBC. I've never had the money or the desire for cable television but I do subscribe to the Washington Post. Imo it's a much better source of news than cable television anyway.

"We do do, and we do it at a very, very high level," Lewis said.

 
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ItmightbeJB
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Re: Tax the freeloaders

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June 29 2012, 4:32 AM 

Once again you're reading things into my words that just aren't there. Illegal immigration and illegal immigrants are two separate things. All of us have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. We're to be forgiven for sins, but that doesn't make the act itself any less evil.

Your revelation that borders shouldn't matter brings us to the central argument that almost every liberal is reticent to admit. Open borders is an unworkable idea in any society. If you adhere to that thinking then you logically must also believe they should have the right to vote once they get here too. Why don't you just admit it instead of dancing around it.

The United States already has the most lenient immigration policy in the world. If you think illegal immigrants are a bunch of migrant workers roaming around looking for fields to harvest for $10.00 a day you're crazy! Migrant workers make up about 5% of this group. By and large these are people who work in the building trades for greedy contractors. Many of the young men already have wives and children back home who they regularly send American dollars to, all the while marrying an American girl up here. They pay no income tax. They have several social security numbers and names. When they get tired of supporting their gringo children they simply stop. Even if you're lucky enough to catch up to one of them the judge will continue their case and release them on OR bond. The continuance is usually 30 days which is ample for them to disappear again. These disappearances are aided by a network of other illegals who know how to bleed the system and ignore the laws. The notion of the poor migrant workers is the pollyanna image put forth by the mainstream media then spoon fed to the guilty caucasian, elitist stepford citizens until it's regarded as truth. Take a look at the deadbeat dad's most wanted list in virtually any midwest county and let me know what most of the surnames and aliases sound like. Here's a hint, Ramirez, Rodriguez, Gomez, thisez and thatez. Believe me this is just the tip of the iceberg. Are you aware that ten percent of Mexico now lives in the United States? And you're seriously telling me this shouldn't matter. To coin a phrase I recently heard that's mindnumbingly stupid!

Regarding Christianity, Obama continues to attack Christians by trying to force them to pay for abortions. Up until yesterday most people would say that's a clear violation of their 1st amendment rights. Now I'm not even sure there's any such thing as first amendment rights anymore. The implications of the SCOTUS ruling are far-reaching and will change almost everything. Once the government has unlimited power I predict you won't like what happens next. And any government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul.




 
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Homey
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Re: Tax the freeloaders

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June 29 2012, 4:43 AM 



"If you guys really think it's so bad I bet Mexico would take you. If not, you guys seem to think being an illegal is such a great life, I hear it is pretty easy to sneak into Mexico, lol."


Do you know Mexico has stricter laws than we do, and their local authorities are allowed to enforce them? The hypocracy is ok though in the name of white guilt. One atonement point for CIN!

 
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Re: Tax the freeloaders

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June 29 2012, 6:46 AM 

Very encouraging to see that a Supreme Court justice was actually willing to interpret the law and not just vote along party lines. I'm not so sure that the other 8 justices have that ability.

What is interesting is the political repercussions of this. Obviously not sure yet if this is a win for the country. However in many ways a win for the President. His effectiveness cannot be questioned at this point...he has delivered on just about every campaign promise now...ironic that someone in this thread called him a liar. In hindsight he has been the most honest president since the Carter/Ford presidencies in the late 1970s. The perception of the economy could still be his undoing, but if he can remind enough independent voters just how bad off the country was in 2008, he may still have a change to win this thing. This also is a win for the GOP. They have all of the rhetoric in their favor. Romney can now promise to repeal this law, which statistically a small majority of the country regardless of political affiliation is against Obamacare. So if he can make this election about healthcare he may be able to appeal to the independents. Also, if his base wasn't rallied enough, this secures it...as unpopular as Mitt was amongst Republicans just two months ago, he will get a huge wave of support from them because he is not President Obama.

I am foreseeing another Harrison/Tilden, Truman/Dewey, Kennedy/Nixon, Nixon/Humphrey, Bush/Gore, or Bush/Kerry type of election this time around. For the President to win, I think that he can out debate Romney just from knowledge and speaking ability, and like I said, he just has to rally the independents and his base by reminding them just how bad off the economy was in 2008 and he needs to trumpet that he has in fact delivered on a number of campaign promises. Romney for one needs to make a wise VP choice (Bob McDonnell from VA would be a good choice or Senator Rubio in an effort to get both the Florida vote and cut in to the Latino vote) and then needs to convince independents that the economy is growing much too slowly and that he can create jobs via tax cuts, etc. As usual, it will still come down to Ohio/Florida/Pennsylvania/Virginia/Michigan/North Carolina.

 
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bengalbear
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Re: *

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June 29 2012, 7:09 AM 

I still think it all boils down to controlling health care costs. That is what is killing small business and one of the things - not the only thing - that is keeping them from hiring. The whole health care system needs to be gone over from top to bottom to see what is causing these high costs - otherwise the system will ultimately break down.

 
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June 29 2012, 9:36 AM 

A possible darkhorse pick for Romney's VP is Nevada''s current governor, Brian Sandoval.
FYI, he is also a graduate of Ohio State's Law School.

He is a moderate Republican. He is pretty well liked in Nevada.

Just a heads up.

"Insert witty quotation here"

 
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June 29 2012, 11:38 AM 

"Requiring people to purchase healthcare is evil."

-- Evil? Huh?

"And as far as illegal immigration is concerned that's evil too."

-- Evil? Huh?

"I already know what bronco thinks about God."

-- I sincerely doubt you know what my beliefs are. If you think my beliefs aren't encapsulated in a book that man wrote, then you would be right. To this day, I still have trouble connecting to people that believe everything in the Bible. There are some things that are impossible (Noah's Ark for one). If you believe Noah's ark actually happened, I will question your decision making and common sense.

Secondly, the good book has changed over the course of 2000 years due to man's modifications. Lastly, there are numerous things in the bible and Old Testament that are now ignored, yet others are believed in with vidor. Hypocrisy? Yes.

As I have said before, I think there is a God or Deity that is in charge somewhere. I also think its man's instinct to seek this out and have something to hold onto - something tangible.

God is poop? Hardly.

But the fact that many people buy everything in the bible - hook, line and sinker - and dont bother to consider if things really happened that way or not is mystifying to me.





"Insert witty quotation here"

 
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June 29 2012, 11:40 AM 

JB, I have no illusions about illegal immigrants. Read what I've said, I think we should have put the US military on the border post 9/11 rather than go nation building in Iraq, so that we could stop illegal immigration. I think a secure border is important. As far as your suggestion that illegal immigration is some liberal pipe dream, again, it's nonsense. Bush did nothing about it while he had a majority in Congress. Both sides have done nothing about it, and don't seem to have any interest in doing anything about it. Businesses love the cheap, exploitable labor, Dems love the votes. I have no illusions about it, but you seem to be under the impression that it is somehow orchestrated by Democrats because they hate America. Also, Obama = Stalin in your opinion. Seems kind of out there to me.
But yes, if everyone acted like Jesus Christ himself it wouldn't be an issue, and voting wouldn't even be necessary either. We wouldn't need government and we'd all live in a happy utopia. But that ain't reality and won't be the reality any time soon. I don't see how from that you get the idea that I want illegal immigrants to vote? Don't you agree that if everyone acted like Jesus immigration status would be irrelevant and government would be unnecessary? Seems kinda obvious to me.

"Regarding Christianity, Obama continues to attack Christians by trying to force them to pay for abortions. Up until yesterday most people would say that's a clear violation of their 1st amendment rights."

Christians' taxes have gone to foreign wars for centuries, and many view this as a violation of their beliefs. You're undoubtedly familiar with the 'thou shalt not kill" provision in the ten commandments? Many Christians think that applies not just to fetuses, but also to dropping bombs on people. So is using their $ for war a violation of the 1st amendment too? Or does that only apply when the government violates YOUR beliefs? You may also remember Jesus saying to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's? How is this to be interpreted in regards to taxes?
I believe reasonable people can have reasonable disagreements on their interpretation of the Bible. You seem to think your interpretation is valid and beyond question, and potentially the only one that counts. If you support a war then it is OK to use tax money on it, but when you don't support something it's "evil" and the end of freedom in America.

As far as this giving the government unlimited power, a bit of a stretch don't you think? How is this more of a power grab then the Patriot Act, which the public wasn't even allowed to view? Is it because you think the Patriot Act was necessary? Guess what, others view this law as necessary. I don't view it as necessary, and don't even like the bill, but I at least was given a chance to read it. Also, my views may be different if I knew someone who died because their coverage was dropped after they became ill. For those people, this bill may be viewed as absolutely necessary. It's like you think the act was passed purely as part of some grand conspiracy to enslave white America and destroy the country. Is that accurate? I'm not a conspiracy theorist so I'm not going to buy into that Glenn Beck/Rush Limbaugh narrative. Just seems childish and intellectually dishonest to me.

And Homey, Mexico may have strict laws, but they have almost no enforcement in many areas. For enough money the police will do whatever you want. Laws are meaningless without enforcement.

"We do do, and we do it at a very, very high level," Lewis said.


    
This message has been edited by CIN-C-STAR from IP address 76.104.64.222 on Jun 29, 2012 11:43 AM


 
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Synonymous Bengal
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June 29 2012, 12:18 PM 

Personally I'm not a big Hitler Fan.  But obviously Sweden and Denmark are.

geedlkjxekcm9e3urbqmqaaajf8as8zessxcr8



people always assess their own performance as "above average" even people who, when tested, actually perform at the very bottom of the pile. [Incompetent People Too Ignorant to Know It]

 
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June 29 2012, 12:44 PM 


 
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bengalbear
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Tax Increase?

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June 29 2012, 1:59 PM 

Does anyone know much it will be? The supreme court doesn't as those details have yet to be worked out.


    
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Hook
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June 29 2012, 2:17 PM 

I probably should have read back a bit to see how the Health Care Debate evolved into religion and immigration. Got to say, the connection doesn't seem obvious.

Nevertheless, the phony outrage meter is tripping again. I think I saw a statistic that Obama's administration has deported more illegals in three years than W's did in eight years.

I won't proclaim that in invented Murf fashion, but do any of you Obama haters have any substantiation that he's lightened up illegal immigration policing? You should check out how active ICE is in its processing of illegals through the Butler County Jail.

I bet the statistics prove that Obama is ejecting illegals with more quantity, just like he's killed more quantity of terrorists (although I'll grant you that he's killed far fewer noncombatants).

And the historical God comment is a remarkable rewrite of history and reason. A lot of Hitler's forces considered themselves religious. The Catholic Church perpetrated genocide on Muslims, Jews and even other Christian sects during the crusades and dark ages. OBL's followers were devout to their faith.

People have been slaughtering others in the name of their true religion for probably as long as there have been people. Religious fantatics are as dangerous as any other type of fanatic.

Face it, guys. You've got an Eisenhower Republican sitting in the White House. The religion-hating, military-hating, tax-loving and terrorist-forgiving open border lackey is a figment of your phony outrage imagination.


 
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June 29 2012, 3:15 PM 

"Does anyone know much it will be?


Depends on whether you are paying or receiving for free


If you work for a living and live paycheck to paycheck its going to be a huge financial burden, if you are one of the leaches of society it will be business as usual

I am worried the whole thing will cause more people to be on the free side increasing the cost of those paying which will cause more of those people to go to the free side.



Bronco, I rarely voice an opinion on political topics but this stinks to high heaven

------------------------------------------
In Memory of Dunn4QB
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Hook
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June 29 2012, 4:12 PM 

Cinci, you got that equation remarkably wrong. Most all of us who work for a living pay for health insurance already. The mandate is not imposed on us.

The leeches who for years have been getting free health care in emergency rooms will now have to start paying into the system. Let 'em pay and let 'em bitch.

By the way, I saw on this evening's news that the highest penalty they can get for not having health insurance is 1% of their gross pay. I'm willing to bet that a great majority of them pay less than 5% of their gross pay in federal income taxes anyway.

It's a hybrid of the Bob Dole proposal from a generation ago and the Mitt Romney/Massachusettes plan from a few years ago. It's about what an Eisenhower Republican like Obama would be expected to propose.

 
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Homey
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June 29 2012, 5:18 PM 

"By the way, I saw on this evening's news that the highest penalty they can get for not having health insurance is 1% of their gross pay"

You sure about that, I think it was that the first year then it escalates after that.

 
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murf
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June 29 2012, 5:19 PM 

Trooper....

Just write the man a letter and ask to see his wiener...
You are on his package like ESPN on Mike Vick, give it a rest.

For the rest of you liberal whack jobs.

Your boy lied.
Bold face, straight up liar.
Read my lips type of lie that just gave the thumpers a tag line to run daily.

This bill does nothing to improve health care or cut cost.
It is a tax increase on the very people hurting the most in this country.
The poor will continue to receive free benefits.
The Rich have insurance and will just go with the many doctors that will go strictly private.
The unions are exempt and so are some of the biggest low wage employers in the country.

So the only people that will feel the pain, is the middle class. AGAIN!

I don't care if Dave Shula becomes the next President, this joke has got to get out of the white house.








http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

 
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June 29 2012, 5:32 PM 

I can't say if this stinks or not until I see the details which have yet to be worked out. I took the liberty to crunch some numbers; lets say you are single and made $50,000 per year then your tax would be $8631. If you had no insurance your penalty would be 1% or $500./yr or $40/mo. When I was working years ago for a contractor my insurance was about $70/mo. and that $40/mo. for this seems reasonable. Right now I pay a lot more than $40./mo for insurance. The question I have is if you have no insurance is the penalty you will pay be for new insurance and who would the carrier be - to be determined by the government? Obviously the devil is in the details.


    
This message has been edited by bengalbear from IP address 65.27.233.7 on Jun 29, 2012 5:59 PM
This message has been edited by bengalbear from IP address 65.27.233.7 on Jun 29, 2012 5:43 PM
This message has been edited by bengalbear from IP address 65.27.233.7 on Jun 29, 2012 5:37 PM


 
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theydey
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June 29 2012, 9:53 PM 

So what would you like John Roberts to declare a tax? Apparently, Mr. Constitution can declare pretty much anything a tax at the drop of a hat.

Off the top of my head, here are a few ideas.

1. Any Bengals loss, directly taxed to Mike Brown
2. In-laws coming to visit.
3. Over-sized women wearing tight shorts.
4. Tom Cruz getting a divorce. Enough already!!
5. Any Reds loss, directly taxed to Mike Brown.


    
This message has been edited by theydey from IP address 65.60.161.26 on Jun 29, 2012 9:54 PM


 
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Hook
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June 30 2012, 4:51 AM 

Murf, your phony outrage is typical and, as always, laughable. But once again I have to suspect that part of it is rooted in the fact that you don't even understand what the adults are saying.

Are you one of these people that is affected by the mandate? If so, I feel sorry for your pitiful employment situation. But, also if so, I feel comfort for your family that you can finally get them some health care at much lower cost.

And when you get it for them, I'm happy that insurance companies (the true death panel icons) can no longer deny coverage for pre-existing conditions, especially in your case, since you've commented that you have an ill child.

But if you're one of those neocon leaches who merely and solely go to emergency rooms for all their health care needs and expect me and other working stiffs to pay for it: TOUGH. It's time for you leeches to pony up.

Calling it a tax is such a meaningless distinction. That reminds me of the shills who bitch about their withholdings for social security and medicare being tax payments...but they then get contorted with confusion when reminded that their payouts would then have to be considered tax credits.

The same will be true of this plan. For that segment of the population that didn't have insurance before, they can get it at much lower cost now, or pay a penalty of a whopping 1% of their gross income. Frankly, I wish it was twice or triple that.

I'm not paying the mandate because I have insurance. Most everyone I know is in the same boat. Most everyone I know, like me, have been subsidizing leaches that don't have insurance for too long.

It's past time they pony up. Call it a tax or call it a mandatory insurance payment, which we all do if we drive vehicles on public roads. I could care less. The leeches are finally going to start putting something into the kitty...and as a consequence also have some access to cheaper health care by having more options than emergency rooms.

 
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June 30 2012, 6:25 AM 

Good points a few posts back about border security. During the Bush era congress was split, and not across party lines, on this issue. I recall Senator Rick Santorum from PENNSYLVANIA being for strong border security while a PRESIDENT from TEXAS yet some senators and congressmen in states such as Texas did not do anything about it. There is too much cheap labor for THEIR constituents to simply wipe out, while the guy from PA, who really does not have much to gain or lose from this issue, is for it.

 
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murf
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June 30 2012, 7:04 AM 

Murf, your phony outrage is typical and, as always, laughable. But once again I have to suspect that part of it is rooted in the fact that you don't even understand what the adults are saying. ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Liberals have a mental disorder, so it is not shocking that you believe that you ever have an adult conversation.


Are you one of these people that is affected by the mandate?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Everyone that works for a living, is affected by the TAX!




But if you're one of those neocon leaches who merely and solely go to emergency rooms for all their health care needs and expect me and other working stiffs to pay for it: TOUGH. It's time for you leeches to pony up.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Have had insurance my entire life and have never been on the system.
My family is well taken care of

Calling it a tax is such a meaningless distinction.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Are you honestly this stupid?
The idiots called it a TAX, that is the only way it is LEGAL.
My lord, your ignorance is unlimited.



The same will be true of this plan. For that segment of the population that didn't have insurance before
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
STILL WILL NOT HAVE INSURANCE PAID OUT OF THEIR OWN POCKET!
How hard is that for you to understand?
If you are poor, you get a free ride....as you did before they forced one of the highest TAX increases in history on the middle class.





they can get it at much lower cost now, or pay a penalty of a whopping 1% of their gross income. Frankly, I wish it was twice or triple that.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes because forcing the working class to come up with more money to pay for the poor is a brilliant idea.
WOW!
People struggle to keep the lights on and feed their families or pay for gas to get to work because you liberal fuchs don't have enough common sense to leave sh!t alone.
Jobs are gone because of your fuched up green dream and outrageous taxes to pay for out of control spending on fuched up projects.


I'm not paying the mandate because I have insurance. Most everyone I know is in the same boat. Most everyone I know, like me, have been subsidizing leaches that don't have insurance for too long. ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
YOU ARE STILL GOING TO BE PAYING FOR THE LEACHES D-BAG!
The difference is now the insurance companies can play games and force you into HIGh RISK INSURANCE.


It's past time they pony up. Call it a tax or call it a mandatory insurance payment, which we all do if we drive vehicles on public roads. I could care less. The leeches are finally going to start putting something into the kitty...and as a consequence also have some access to cheaper health care by having more options than emergency rooms.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It is going to cost the State of Ohio hundreds of millions of dollars...
Where is that coming from?

http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

 
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June 30 2012, 8:22 AM 

At least you're forcing those that have no insurance to pay something. If they are hurt or get a terrible disease the hospitals would have to treat them anyway. Now by forcing them to have insurance the insurance companies will handle most of the cost except for the deductible which will become a bad debt for those who get this kind of insurance probably won't pay the deductible which I suspect will be substantial. It will be a lot more than the deductible I pay.

 
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murf
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June 30 2012, 10:33 AM 

Who are you forcing to carry insurance?

The poor continue to get a free ride.
Unions and the lowest wage payers are exempt.
College kids?
They don't have money either....



http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

 
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June 30 2012, 11:00 AM 

If they are working and earning a salary and not carrying insurance they will pay an additional 1% tax. This is real preliminary and there are obviously a lot of questions to be answered on this - a lot of moving parts.

 
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Hook
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June 30 2012, 11:28 AM 

It's like the which came first, chicken or the egg, question with Murf. Is he absolutely too ignorant to know what the mandate means and who pays it by this point? Or is he too programmed to wrap himself up in a phony indignation blanket regardless of the circumstances.

In his case, it's probably not an either/or distinction. Incredible ignorance wrapped up in a lifetime quest for phony indignation.

I can only imagine the laughter from his classmates when he tried to speak up in class.

 
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murf
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June 30 2012, 11:53 AM 

Ok d-bag...real simple question for ya.


IF THIS TAX DOES NOT AFFECT:
The middle class working family
The Poor
The Rich
Then who is going to be paying the new tax?
The major groups cover 95% of society and that includes the illegals.

So who exactly is this going to affect?


http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

 
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TIITR should like this post

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June 30 2012, 4:50 PM 

Anybody feel like they just got bent over and f*cked to death??!!?!??!?!

I do.

Nice job, Supreme Court in not taking accountability--or taking into account the thing that you're supposed to protect--THE CONSTITUTION!!!!!!!!

Now you leave it up to the American People to decide for themselves on whether they want the sh*ttiest program since The Patriot Act in November.

Again--NICE F*CKING JOB!!!!!!





"So he got fired? Big deal. It's happened to the best of us. So he got kicked out of his house by his 400 lb'ed wife?!?!? That's probably better for him anyways."-OldSchooler on ChrisMBHater's absence


    
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Hook
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June 30 2012, 10:08 PM 

Just as I thought, Murf. Years into the debate and you now ask who the mandate affects. No surprise that you didn't know.

It affects the uninsured. It affects a lot of miscreants who simply go into emergency rooms for their basic health care needs and let the working stiffs pick up the tab.

It doesn't get them all, but it gets a sizeable portion. If you weren't lying about having health care insurance already, it doesn't get you at all.

I remember making an irritated statement a year or so ago that Obama made a real error of omission by not stressing and explaining the mandate as a vehicle to address the leaches of our society. Now it looks like he's learned his lesson.

The Obama-haters are going to have to wallow in bed with the seamiest side of the welfare queens if they keep up the attack. Here's hoping their hypocriscy is exposed and humiliated.

 
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murf
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July 1 2012, 4:18 AM 

LMAO...

Your lack of intelligence is amusing at times.

So, this TAX increase only affects a very small % of the population?
Then why did you liberal types run around with tears screaming WHAT ABOUT THE POOR..
According to you, the only people that this TAX hurts are college kids and the illegals.

WOW!
What about the HIGH RISK premiums?
What about the rationing of medications?

You are too stupid to insult at times.

http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

 
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Hook
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July 1 2012, 6:04 AM 

"According to you, the only people that this TAX hurts are college kids and the illegals.

WOW!
What about the HIGH RISK premiums?
What about the rationing of medications?"~Murf

How many lies and proclamations of ignorance can one little dolt put in a few short lines? You are truly an amazing example of a frothing, lying, doltish victim-wannabe nincompoop.

I never mentioned illegals. I never mentioned college kids. Why do you make such obvious garbage up? Are you truly that crazed that you can't even disguise your lies any better than that?

The premium for insurance, or tax in your victim wannabe persona, affects those that don't already have insurance. College kids? Not only did I not mention them, but part of the overall program keeps them covered under their parents' policies until age 26. Illegals? You should thank Obama for deporting them in such large numbers since replacing the dolt that used to o occupy the White House.

I never came close to suggesting the mandate is targeted at college kids and illegals...although it doesn't bother me if illegals have to pay it as well. The mandate targets anyone that asks working stiffs like me to cover their medical bills in emergency rooms. It's a program that only welfare queens would anguish about. I'm not surprised to see that you're squeeling.

High risk premiums? What's your point? On one hand, you're not paying them (unless you told one more lie about already having insurance). The insurance might not be as good as mine, but it's better than none.

And rationing of medication? For one, that's yet another doltish example of not staying focused. That has nothing to do with buying health insurance. And number two, I suspect you're simply lying again.

I didn't ask my doctor such an abstractly insane question about medicne rationing when I was in for a checkup a couple months ago, but I did ask him if there was anything about the new health care cost that was going to affect his ability to treat my family. He emphatically said no.

I'd like to see your substantiation that medicine is going to be rationed. Link to the portion of law that spells this out, please.

I imagine you're simply lying again.


 
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murf
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July 1 2012, 6:46 AM 

You are beyond annoying at times b/c you are so arrogant in your ignorance it makes it almost impossible to have a conversation with you.

OK Rainman, read slow:

An estimated 30 million people do not have health insurance.
Who do you think is part of the estimated 30 million?
I will give you a slight hint jackazz....THE VERY PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN GIVEN AN EXEMPTION!!!!!!!
That includes the college kids, and yes, if your child stays on your health insurance while they are in college, that is going to make your rates higher!

Who is more likely to not purchase health insurance?
The middle class worker or the dude in his 20's still working the fries at McDonalds?
You do realize that we have roughly 10 million people working low wage jobs in the fast food and hotel business.
Another 4 million that work for big box stores and atleast another million that work for grocery stores.
They are all EXEMPT!
So are 17.7 million union workers and over 2 million federal government employees.

So if you are giving the poor a free ride and you are giving the working poor a free ride, just where are the people that you are going after?
The very small percentage of middle class families that do not have insurance but pay taxes, but you run as fast as you can to save some type of welfare program for people that don't a dime in taxes?

The biggest number will be the college students and that still falls right back on the majority of the middle class.

Man alive you are too stupid to offend.

High risk:
I am forced to pay HIGH RISK premiums!!!!!!
I have been for over 2 fuching years now, don't fuching tell me that this is not true.
You don't know what the fuch you are talking about.

Rationing:
Yes, have had to fight with the insurance company several times over my boys medication that he needs to LIVE, because their system claimed that he should not need the medication yet and there is a release date for the meds in the system.
So you spend hours going from d-bag to d-bag on the phone trying to explain to them the doctors have changed the amount of medications trying to get his levels normal and we can't wait a few more days for the medication.

That is just a small example of what is headed your way under this new TAX according to the doctors and the pharmacist.
You do realize that there are children facing death right now in this country because the fuching federal government and their regulations are slowing the process to create the medication kids need to fight cancer.

Honestly, you are the single most arrogant *** bag I have ever come across.
You don't have a clue what you are talking about outside of your fuched up political talking points.

How on earth you liberal whack jobs can't see past your hypocrisy is amazing to me.
You make the claim that you are happy that the government is going after the people that are on the giant government t!t, but you fight for more programs that create generations of people on the t!t.

What is the difference between welfare programs and health care?
They are all socialist programs...





http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

 
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Hook
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July 1 2012, 9:50 AM 

You poor welfare queen. You don't like the quality of your private health care insurance? And then you connect that to forcing some leaches to start paying for theirs?

You are so far removed from connecting dots it's comical. Sorry, Murf. Your welfare queen brethren and sistren will have to start ponying up. Maybe not all of them, but a great number of them. It's not right that working people (I guess you're not one of us) are forced to pick up the costs of the uninsured who trot into emergency rooms for all their care.

If you don't like your current insurance coverage (by the way, that's a contradition to your earlier posting, but you're well exposed as a ranting liar trying to have it both ways by now) then you really, really need to advocate for a single payer system, i.e. medicare for all. You'll have to turn in your tea bagger membership card. But then, you never really did understand what the debate was about anyway.

 
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July 1 2012, 10:52 AM 

Oh snap!

 
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July 1 2012, 1:25 PM 

I think that part of this mandate to even the cost of the "high risk" sector was to include younger-healthier-uninsured folks into the pool to offset the costs. Well if you leave the 19-26 year olds on their parents plan, It looks as if a portion of these "lower-risk" participants aren't buying to help pull the wagon. This probably opens the door to the same people "carrying the water" to carry more of the water. But don't worry those that have "cadillac plans" (read rich or union) are exempt due to your favored status, bought and paid for by your dues and/or wealth until 2018 (could be a year or two off either way, as I don't care to look it up). Anyone that paid enough to push this through is good for a while (search the cool pharma-driven parts of this turd).

Keep drinking what your masters spill, they love your $$$ and vigor to defend what they spew.

 
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TOBB
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hitler and Belko Tom

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July 1 2012, 1:29 PM 

Tom you're comparing godless nations like Denmark and Sweden to Hitler-lovers? Hitler was a Catholic you dolt. YOU have more in Common with Ghengis Kahn than I or any other atheist does with Hitler. You have no clue what you're talking about. No society on earth ever suffered because it's people became MORE reasonable and LESS dogmatic. Nations turning away from God? Which gods? What nations?

God is poop? Yep. Big steaming pile of it.

 
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Fulcher
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Re: hitler and Belko Tom

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July 2 2012, 4:52 AM 

Fears that I have:

If they are allowed to tax you or make it a penalty for not having healthcare than what else will Big Brother force upon us.
I can easily see where they could and will apply more regulations upon the citizens. Healthcare is only the start to more tax's and regulations. Even in Healthcare this is only the beginning. I can foresee more tax's on smokers, drinkers or people who don't eat enough vegetables.

Also, if more people are put on government Medicare than I fear that inevitably this country will turn into a single payer system. I can easily see this as a begining of the single payer system and over time health care providers will close their doors and more and more people will turn to the government for their healthcare.

How much control should a government have over are everyday lives?

Already they seem to be getting more and more involved in forcing our hands on how we handle our lives. Do we need to be forced into doing things against our will. Should it not be a choice to have healthcare or not, should it not be a choice on how we act, eat, or live.

What is Freedom? Is Freedom not making ones own decisions and having control over ones own life.

Unfortunately, people are slowly putting all of their own control into the governments hands. They know longer wish to make their own choices but need laws to set guidelines on how they should live.

 
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TOBB
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Murf's phony outrage

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July 2 2012, 5:52 AM 

Guys NOBODY can be as obstinate and clueless as Murf wants you to think. He is actually a world-class TROLL, because he gets so many of you to toss him his phony softballs. Then he, in his own mind, "knocks it out of the park". It's an act people. Nobody this stupid is still alive after 40 years.

Mikey is cleverer than you think.

 
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ItmightbeJB
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Re: Murf's phony outrage

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July 2 2012, 7:01 AM 

Fulcher, good luck convincing these guys that government powers should be kept in check. They aren't worried about it because their holy savior is steering the ship right now. Once a Republican gets back into office they'll be the ones sounding the alarm. It's all about idealogy to them. Personally, I don't think either party should have as much power as the government is taking. The Patriot Act needs to be rolled back or killed. The TSA Agency commits outrageous assaults on people's privacy on a daily basis with impunity. The EPA is spying on American farmers, (Yes, spying on Americans) and nobody seems to even care.

Like I've said before, most of these guys are not going to like the world the government leaves behind after this enormous power grab. It's a slippery slope. Many of our parents used to say the reason they worked so hard was so their kids (us) wouldn't have to. Well guess what, IT WORKED. We've become a nation of spoiled brats, unwilling to work for a living. Unwilling to pay off their student loans. Unwilling to start at the bottom and work their way up. Unwilling to move out of mommy and daddy's basement. And, unwilling to take responsibilty for their own misdeeds. At the end of the day, we did this to ourselves.







    
This message has been edited by ItmightbeJB from IP address 74.215.234.122 on Jul 2, 2012 7:03 AM


 
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bengalbear
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Re: *

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July 2 2012, 7:40 AM 

We might all be overreacting to this. We need to find out the details of what the 1% tax entails - is it a penalty only or is it to be used to provide insurance to those that don't have it. I think if it is an insurance payment and the policy involved would be rudimantary in nature and require a big deductible. It is an attempt to get those uninsured to pay something and get insurance companies involved where otherwise they wouldn't be.

 
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Fulcher
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Re: Murf's phony outrage

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July 2 2012, 7:57 AM 

Jb,

You my friend are 100% right.

This country is now filled to the brim of self Entitelment. People believe that because they are American citizens they have every right to have everything handed to them. They should not have to work hard to get to the top or start at the bottom and work their way up but instead everything should be given with little to no work. Sad but true, and this will be our own downfall as a nation.

I also agree about the Patriot Act. It is amazing how easily the government can convencie people to give up rights through fear.
The illegal search and seizure that came with the act was by far unconstitutional. I think could be wrong that it has since been thrown out by the courts. At least I hope so.

Both parties today are both a joke. People seem to vote along party lines and agree with whatever actions their party decide to take. They do this with little or no thought process what so ever. Their party knows what's best for them and the other party is the problem and everything that is wrong or bad with their life is a direct result of the other party's actions. It's amazing how easily both parties have the american public in their grips. The citizens have become nothing more than hordes of drooling minions that will do their parties bidding regardless of outcome.

It's sad to see the demise of the Republic through the greed and power hungry politicians who have their mindless hordes by their side.


    
This message has been edited by Fulcher-the-Vulture from IP address 70.189.0.228 on Jul 2, 2012 8:01 AM


 
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Synonymous Bengal
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Re: Murf's phony outrage

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July 2 2012, 9:37 AM 

ummm bengalboy perhaps you should read up a few lines, I was playing on what JB had said regarding godless nations... and the hitler reference is a play on murph.

people always assess their own performance as "above average" even people who, when tested, actually perform at the very bottom of the pile. [Incompetent People Too Ignorant to Know It]

 
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Synonymous Bengal
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Role of Government

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July 2 2012, 9:44 AM 

As this health care debate moves along, it does create an interesting question for me regarding the role of government.  If anyone from either side of the aisle would like to chime in I'd be interested in your perspective.

What does required health care mean for the role of government in our nation.  Does it expand or contract the role of govt and how?

The reason I ask is that in our country people would not accept the notion that someone with a life threatening condition be left on a hospital step to bleed out.  Society demands that we at least bring that person inside and give them a minium standard of care.  That being said, if the patient does not or can not pay the bill, that bill is paid for by our government health and human services.  That requires not only that we pay that bill but also that we expand the size and role of our government by staffing that department and by evaluating the private setor services being rendered to that patient.

On the other hand, we require individuals to obtain private health insurance at the risk of receiving a tax penalty.  We have an established IRS with a larger mission and mandate than health care that will not be going away and does not require a significant influx of staffing to reach the goals and objectives.  Individuals can still chose their health care provider, and the private sector negotiates care and not the government.

So, perhaps I am looking at this in the wrong way, I certainly do not proclaim to know the law or what it means very well.  but from my view, requireing people to get health care results in smaller government than having a government provided health care system for those that don't?

 

thoughts?

 



people always assess their own performance as "above average" even people who, when tested, actually perform at the very bottom of the pile. [Incompetent People Too Ignorant to Know It]

 
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Fulcher
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Re: Role of Government

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July 2 2012, 10:59 AM 

Ill play along

This is how I see the law, remember I don't fully understand it but who does:

Medicade: Medicade will increase to size under the new healthcare law. Citizens who do not have insurance now might now be elligible to join under Medicade. The way I understand it is that Medicade eligibility will be more leaneant under the new plan. The question is who will foot the bill for the influx of patients under the Medicade plan. Originally the bill was to force the states into footing the bill for Medicade and would have put an extra bourdon upon them funding this expansion. The supreme court said that this was unconstitutional and noted the states would not have to unwillingly expand Medicade. So unfortunately how, what or when inevitably it will be the tax payers who foot the bill regardless of symantics.

This new role of Medicade is an expansion of governments role into our healthcare system. I don't see and argument otherwise. The government decides everything regarding these plans. Whether it be how much it pays providers, or what medical treatments or drugs you receive. This unfortunately I see ending up turning into a single payer system. I might be wrong but that's where I see it going.

The bill also now will put an extra burdon on small business, before a company did not have to offer heir employees benifits but now under the law any employer with 50 or more people will have to offer coverage. As your well aware larger conglomerates get a discount on health coverage than smaller companies. I foresee this extra expense being passed onto consumers or forcing smaller companies out of the market. I see this as an unfortunate act for small community business that are just trying to get buy and a push for larger conglomerates like GE. Guess there is no room for little guy these days.


Also, the real question though is not about healthcare but on what the role of the federal government be in our everyday lives. Does the federal government have the right to dictate if we have healthcare or not? I say no
The federal government seems to have an ever expanding role and foresee it as ever increasing bubble and would love to hear as to what boundaries should the federal government have or is there no boundaries on their control of our lives.


 
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TOBB
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Yep

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July 2 2012, 4:25 PM 

Yes your facetiousness went by me; my apologies. I lose track of our ideology inventory.

Mikey is cleverer than you think.

 
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Hook
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Re: Role of Government

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July 3 2012, 12:32 AM 

Fulcher, the irony to me is that I think the neocon perspective would be far more principled on Health Care if it advocated allowing hospitals to turn uninsured people away. That would truly be consistent with government staying out of people's lives.

But that's not the reality. The status quo is a far more socialistic model. Uninsured are not only allowed into hospitals, working people pay for their care.

Does anyone know of a single politician who advocates turning the uninsured away? I haven't heard of one.

Without advancing that initiative, it's meritless to complain that Obama is interjecting government into our health care lives. It already is interjected into our lives.

If we're all going to have access to health care, then there has to be a system where we all pay into the kitty to get it. That is all there is to the mandate.

It doesn't create socialized healthcare. It just makes socialized healthcare a bit less insane and unfair.

 
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Fulcher
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Re: Role of Government

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July 3 2012, 5:15 AM 

The biggest problem I have with the law is it forces all individuals to get health insurance this in principal is wrong to me. In my opinion the Federal government has no right to force an individual who does not want insurance to buy insurance. The supreme court ruling makes it clear that the federal government can now force it's citizens to do whatever the goverment sees necessary through taxation.

That my friends is bigger than the healthcare debate itself.

I promise you wether it be a Republican or a Democrat elected in the future they will enforce more regulations upon us using taxation. This was only a turn key law for future mandates.


 
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Fulcher
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Re: Role of Government

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July 3 2012, 5:29 AM 

It dosent matter if the law is good or not
It dosent matter if it is repealed


What matters is the new status quo is federal mandates through taxation.

That scares me

 
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Hook
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Re: Role of Government

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July 3 2012, 5:30 AM 

Not that it matters, Fulcher, but you basically outline a position that, although I don't agree with it, I respect it totally on its merits. It reminds me of the debate that no doubt was raging at the creation of social security and then medicare. Should government force people to buy insurance for anything?

I'm troubled by the concept. But I'm going to weigh it in the balances and reluctantly go along with it. If we don't, then we're going to have start turning people away at hospitals.

That was doubtless the trump card that pitched the debate on social security and medicare. If we didn't force them to buy insurance during their working lives, a lot of those people would be destitute in their elder years. Although they should have saved and/or bought themselves insurance, a great number weren't doing it, and most likely would never have been reasoned with to start doing it.

Then working Americans would have had to decide whether to let them whither in agony, and some no doubt to premature death, or totally pick up the tab for their core needs.

In health care, working Americans are totally picking up the emergency room tab for tens of millions on uninsured. Our only other choice is to let them suffer and/or die, or force them to buy some means-adjusted insurance.

Since no politicians, GOP leaders included, advocate turning them away, there is no other choice but to mandate theat Americans buy health insurance, much like they buy their social security and medicare insurance.

 
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Fulcher
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Re: Role of Government

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July 3 2012, 5:33 AM 

Hook,

I agree something had to be done with our healthcare, I just dont know if this was the answer or not.


 
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murf
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Re: Role of Government

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July 3 2012, 4:00 PM 

Welfare queen?
LMAO...

You are just a simple idiot...
Go away!



http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

 
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Synonymous Bengal
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Re: Role of Government

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July 3 2012, 4:39 PM 

"the Federal government has no right to force an individual who does not want insurance to buy insurance."

Would you also say the same thing about nuclear weapons, roads, police officers?

I'd prefer that my tax money didn't go to some things that it does go to, but that's the breaks, right? In a Democracy, majority rules, and if they want something tax payers have to pony up.

And yes, I pay taxes. No, I don't really have a problem with most of the things it goes to. But one example, I didn't really want my tax money used to go to war in Iraq, but it did.

I completely respect your right to oppose and criticize the law, but I don't really see how the government forcing people to pay taxes to buy something they don't want is new. The Supreme Court apparently didn't it was so new either.

"We do do, and we do it at a very, very high level," Lewis said.

 
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Re: Role of Government

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July 3 2012, 4:48 PM 

"In a Democracy, majority rules"

Tell that to the poor people who passed prop 8 in California.

 
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Hook
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Re: Role of Government

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July 3 2012, 6:05 PM 

Murf, you simply got your butt totally, undeniably and prolifically kicked again. That's all you could come back with?

On behalf of not just me, but most everyone on the board, thanks again for the laughs, welfare queen.

 
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Re: Role of Government

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July 3 2012, 6:07 PM 

There are checks and balances, homey. That is the purpose of our system of government.

The reason why we have these checks and balances is to ensure that crazies like the Nazis don't gain too much traction or control in the country. People can be swayed by opinion and circumstance in scary fashion. The ballot box is a hallmark of republic and a democracy, but its not the only hallmark. That is why we have a legislature, an executive and a judicial branch of government.

This country may have bonded in an amazing way after 9/11, but it also came dangerously close to swinging the pendulum of hate towards Muslims back to pre- black and white integration and reminded me (at least) of how this county treated had Asian Americans after Pearl Harbor.

Its just sad and disgusting. Homey, it is CRYSTAL clear even you harbor some serious distrust and fear of Muslims. We can all agree that you are just are pretty paranoid on this issue. However, you are not alone. There are other crazies like you that got so scared after 9/11 that you are unable to eat in a restaurant with another Muslim without fear of being the victim of a suicide bomber. Its crazy to the rest of us, but it seems normal to you. I havent a clue why you live your life in such a manner, but you are allowed to have those thoughts, insane as they might be.





"Insert witty quotation here"

 
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murf
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WOW

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July 4 2012, 6:49 AM 

Seriously?
The sad part about even trying to have a debate with a fuching idiot like yourself, is that no matter what facts are presented, you simply do not have the ability to sit back and understand anything.
You do not have a sick child, so you have 0% understanding of what someone with a sick child has to go through, but yet you will sit there and kick and scream that you know more than the person who is dealing with a real life situation.
You claim to be a progressive liberal type, so you fight for the right to keep generations on welfare and love all of these government programs that take care of people that never pay a dime into the income tax pool, but you applaud a tax that goes after the working class poor trying to stay off of the system.
You are a grade A azzclown that is a waste of time to even debate.
If it makes you feel better to believe that you won a debate that you know nothing about, then run up and down the street high fiving yourself and tell your neighbors how you won.
Other than that, I am done with you on this.

Bronco...
You are playing that fuching liberal card that is old and tired.
Nobody FEARS a muslim.
Do people have an issue of trusting Muslims?
Of course, only an idiot would ignore the 19,158 coward attacks since 9-11.
You have to keep alert of your surroundings, that is basic survival skills.
Do I think that I am going to be sitting in a restaurant and get blown up by a muslim one day?
No.
Do I fear getting on a plane with a muslim?
NO.
Do I like the muslim religion?
NO, but it has nothing to do with fear.

The political wing of the muslim religion pushes the Islamaphobia up the azz of the liberals in this country and unfortunately the liberals eat it up.
Frankly, I am sick tired of watching the liberals destroy this country with their candy azz political correctness.
If you are a muslim you should be searching for solutions and working to be accepted into society not running around pointing the finger at everyone that questions your cult and crying that you are misunderstood.

As for the general government debate...
We were never meant to be a democracy.
A democracy leads to socialism.
Socialism is a failed theory when you add the human element.




http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

 
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Re: WOW

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July 4 2012, 2:01 PM 

uh...correct me if I am wrong - but isnt the tax or penalty (depending on which repub you ask) only targeting those who DO NOT purchase medical insurance???

How is this any different than the state penalizing you if you do not have car insurance?

How is this tax/penalty targeting the middle class?

Why do you not have health insurance?

If you do not - then you are a leach on society.

How I see it from 10,000 feet is that the Right is jealous that this got passed through by the Left because they know this is a good program and good for the country...however they will try to kill it with spreading fear of government invasion into our privacy and forcing things we dont want onto us......

uh.... I like Insurance....car, medical, life... I dont want to be caught in a situation paying hundreds of thousands in medical costs...and I surely dont expect my fellow American to pay my debt either.

correct me if I am wrong..........

T

 
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Hook
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Re: WOW

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July 4 2012, 3:37 PM 

"... so you fight for the right to keep generations on welfare" Lie Number 1.

".. and love all of these government programs that take care of people that never pay a dime into the income tax pool, but you applaud a tax that goes after the working class poor trying to stay off of the system." Lie Number 2.

Heck, Murf. In a twisted sort of way, you're advancing. When you go into your frothing rage after being slaughtered, you're making stuff up in multiples in the same paragraphs these days.

I don't hate the working poor. I just don't feel like I should have to pay for their emergency room bills without them even making a token payment. That's not "going after" them. That's simply asking them to be accountable for spending other people's money. You are so twisted and so lacking any credibility on this topic.

You are supporting the welfare queens that you proclaim to detest.

 
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murf
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Re: WOW

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July 5 2012, 2:27 AM 

The Welfare queens still get FREE HEALTH CARE!

The working poor, that barely has enough money to feed their families are now told to find more money to purchase insurance while the welfare queens continue to live for free.

how hard is that for you to understand?

You have proven nothing.
You have provided nothing but a very uneducated arrogant opinion.

I am not defending the welfare queens, I am defending the people that do not want to go on welfare, but will be forced to join the nation of leaches because they simply do not have enough money to pay more taxes to provide the welfare queens more benefits.

You will never understand the daily struggles of the working poor, so for you to bash them, the people that work and pay taxes is disgusting.



http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

 
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Hook
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Re: WOW

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July 5 2012, 4:20 AM 

The Welfare Queens already get free health care in emergency rooms. That's the issue, you clueless victim wannabe.

Now a whole lot of them will have to buy some insurance at rates far lower than what was previously available to them. The rates will be means-adjusted. The coverage will also give them health care options much more cost effective than merely going to emergency rooms.

I'm not out to prove anything, Murf. I'm just ridiculing you for your amazing ignorance of the details.

No one is out to nail the working poor or the indigent. That's a completely phony allegation.

On the other hand, someone has finally stepped up to the plate to stop nailing taxpayers for picking up the tab for millions of people who flock into emergency rooms when they become ill.

The question remains: Why do you continue to advocate for the Welfare Queens? You apparently identify with them.

 
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ItmightbeJB
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Re: WOW

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July 5 2012, 9:42 AM 

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a SCOTUS decision that required hospitals to treat patients regardless of their ability to pay?

In this case we're primarily talking about millions of illegal aliens. Will these people divulge their immigration status to purchase health insurance? Or is it more likely they will continue living in their shadow world while receiving free healthcare just like they always have. One way they have to admit their status and pay for health insurance. The other way they continue to pay nothing, don't have to admit they're in this country illegally, and get free healthcare as usual. Either way, the American taxpayers are footing the bill, either by subsidizing the low income families' insurance premiums, while struggling to pay for their own, or by paying increased amounts for their own healthcare which gets passed on to us to make up for the losses hospitals incur by being ditched by the freeloaders.

I don't think this has ever been about the quality or cost of healthcare as originally framed for us. It looks suspiciously like every other move this president makes; redistributive wealth to huge voter blocks that are more likely to vote for Democrats.

*********************************************************************************

A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul.



    
This message has been edited by ItmightbeJB from IP address 74.215.234.122 on Jul 5, 2012 9:46 AM
This message has been edited by ItmightbeJB from IP address 74.215.234.122 on Jul 5, 2012 9:44 AM


 
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bengalbear
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Re: *

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July 5 2012, 10:06 AM 

There are approx. 40 mill US citizens who don't have health insurance. Out of that number how many are on welfare who have no health insurance? Than there are the illegals - how many are there? The part that I wonder about - hospitals treat anyone whether they are illegal or not or with no insurance or on welfare. If there are a large number of illegals that can harm the system - who pays for them or is it absorbed in the high cost of health insurance?


    
This message has been edited by bengalbear from IP address 65.27.233.7 on Jul 5, 2012 10:07 AM


 
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bronco
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RE

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July 5 2012, 11:06 AM 

Perhaps if Congress and the President had actually worked on a clear and effective immigration policy in the last 40 years, we wouldnt be in this mess.

FYI, I blame both parties here. The Democrats are too afraid to piss off the Latinos vote.

The Republicans are too afraid to piss off part of their base that relies on the migrant workers to work for cheap labor in their businesses.

I have a feeling if Obama is re-elected, he will try to make some serious changes to immigration.
If Romney gets elected, its more of the same.

I dont mean that as a swipe against Romney. Its more of a "what I can do as a second term President, rather than a first term President, becuase I dont have to worry about re-election".



"Insert witty quotation here"

 
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Hook
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Re: *

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July 5 2012, 11:11 AM 

JB, on one hand you've got Murf crying for the working poor who now must pay a token amount for health insurance or pay a whopping 1% of their adjusted gross income in mandate penalties. And then you come in and say this is about redistributing wealth to the poorer citizens?

You neocons can't keep your talking points connected at all.

The uninsured have been getting our money for decades precisely because emergency rooms must treat them. It wasn't fair to the insured. The mandate addresses that issue.

There has been a massive redistribution of wealth in recent years....to the wealthiest. There needs to be some serious discourse about reversing that unsettling issue. But the affordable health care act doesn't, nor did it intend to.

The mandate is literally a welfare reform mechanism. It should have been promoted as such two years ago. Now it finally is....and it has the neocons frothing in confused rage.

 
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ItmightbeJB
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July 5 2012, 2:04 PM 


Hook, the point is a simple one. Even if the working poor have to buy health insurance, it's STILL the rest of us who have to pay for it. If family health insurance costs $400.00 a month and the low income family has to pay $150.00 a month of it due to the graduated pay scale, then that means the rest of us are paying more than we are now. Now you can call that a "token amount" if you choose, but it's the middle class holding the biggest chunk of the token as usual. I don't understand why that's so difficult for some to understand. Whether you're a neocon or a flaming Rachel Madcow lemming is immaterial. It's simple arithmetic.

 
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Hook
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July 5 2012, 2:28 PM 

But JB, the status quo is that the insured taxpayers are paying all the emergency room bills now. Since no politician is suggesting that hospitals start turning people away, the only options are to continue to placate the destitute and uninsured, whether they are welfare queens or not, or start mandating that they put something into the kitty.

The last thing that's on the table is a redistribution of the wealth to the poorest among us. Heck, even Murf is whining about the working poor having to pay something for their health care, for a change. It's mind-boggling how far you missed reality with that remark.

 
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ItmightbeJB
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July 5 2012, 2:53 PM 


Well, I'm sorry to boggle your mind Hook but the point remains, even to those who can't grasp it. Not only does the middle class family now have to buy healthcare insurance for themselves, they also have to make up the difference between what the poor family can afford, and what the real cost is. So by any measure the middle class has to pay more than they did before. Remember, all these millions of people who don't have healthcare INSURANCE now, STILL have healthcare. This Affordable Healthcare Act does little more than dictate who else is going to pay for it. That is redistributive wealth regardless of who is counting the beans.

 
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July 5 2012, 2:56 PM 

"But JB, the status quo is that the insured taxpayers are paying all the emergency room bills now. Since no politician is suggesting that hospitals start turning people away, the only options are to continue to placate the destitute and uninsured, whether they are welfare queens or not, or start mandating that they put something into the kitty."

I dont think the righties get this part, Hook.
They dont think they are paying it for now or something.
Its mind boggling.

Let's be real.

No matter what anyone does to fix the health care problem they righties will always have a thorn up their butt if any part of the population gets a hand out. Blame the lawyers, blame the liberals and blame everyone besides the uber-wealthy. God knows they have everyone's best interest at heart. Sigh...



"Insert witty quotation here"


    
This message has been edited by broncobux from IP address 24.234.30.172 on Jul 5, 2012 3:22 PM


 
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July 5 2012, 4:04 PM 

My heavens, you are the dumbest humanbeing I have ever come across.
Once again, your arrogance and ignorance combine to make you look like a grade A azz clown.

#1--The poor the people you call the WELFARE queens are not going to be paying a fuching dime you nimrod.
They get FREE HEALTH CARE, just like they did before!!!!!

#2--The illegals are a huge problem, not only did the fuching idiots fail to address that problem, the idiot in office just gave over a million of them a free pass to get all kinds of benefits.

#3--the Percentage of the working class poor that abuse the system, is so small, it is like taking a class of water out of the ocean.
#4--The college kids that can't afford insurance, are just going to be added to their parents policy and that policy will now be more expensive.
#5--The insurance companies can now play games with premiums and basicly run your life or force you to pay a higher premium.
#6--you are creating a giant swell of people that will jump on the free money train.
Why on earth would someone continue to struggle and live with that stress instead of joining the welfare nation?
#7--The working poor are having trouble making ends meet, and this new tax and that you love so much, just hit them harder while the real problem is not being touched.

Those are facts...not opinions.
So please tell me, how on earth you believe this is a good system?
You are still paying for the welfare queens and the illegals and the drug addicts.

WOW!

The Health Savings Account was a brilliant idea, but of course the fuching liberals found out that people didn't need them and found away to destroy that system.
That system was perfect!!!!!


http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

 
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July 5 2012, 5:13 PM 

JB,

I was always open to hear ideas from the right how to insure the 40 million uninsured Americans.

(Crickets Chirping)

They didnt address it. Never came close.

They didnt address it because the right's answer to poor people is to remove and destroy social funding and those who cant make it (survival of the fittest) will die off. Fair assessment? Or did I miss the right's plan to cover the 40 million uninsured?



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Hook
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July 5 2012, 5:45 PM 

Murf, you are so far removed from adult conversation it's beyond comical. You never mention a fact and then call your babbling, contradictive vitriol facts.

The facts are simple. Tens of millions of Americans get their medical care at no cost to them by going to emergency rooms. Emergency rooms have always had to treat them and pass on the costs to society in general.

You babble on one hand that some ultra poor are going to get insurance they don't deserve but some not-quite-so-poor should continue to get free emergency room care? You define the classic, victim wannabe welfare queen.

I'm starting to get a little cheered up that the progressives are vocalizing the welfare reform aspects of this legislation. Polls are starting to move more in its favor.

Murf, not that you can connect a dot (dolts simply can't) but does it give you any pause to consider that some neocons are calling this the biggest tax increase in history, and your last post suggests that the working poor can only put a pittance into the kitty?

And JB...for cyring out loud, doesn't Murf with his attacking-the-poor rhetoric make you cringe when you claim this is some sort of redistribution of the wealth scheme?

Naw to both of you. It's simple, ethical accountability. The emergency room free ride is being closed down. And a 1% of adjusted gross pay penalty on the mandate for those who refuse to get insurance is hardly clobbering the working poor or Murf's Welfare Queen brothers and sister.

 
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July 5 2012, 6:50 PM 

Hook,

You gotta break it down to dollars and cents for them.

Example:

Pre Obamacare (actually, it should be called Bob-Dole-Care or even Romney-Care, but I digress), the hospitals charged $1000 for an MRI because they werent getting paid for the MRI's that the poorest of folks received, thus they tacked on a certain amount to to each person or insurance company paying for the MRI basically because they could. Any poor person that actually paid their bill was a suprise and a profit for the hospital.

Post-Obamacare - the hospitals now charge $500-700 an MRI because they dont have to pass on the non-payments from the poor folks as the gov't will pick up the check for the poor folks. Whereas you may, at least initially, pay a higher amount for insurance premiums, the actual amounts paid to the hospital per MRI are cheaper and lower. Now, whether or not the insurance companies pass the savings on to yo,u after the system is up and running and is more efficient is a horse of a different tale. However, at least you will be able to look at them and squarely place the blame if they dont reduce their premiums. Afterall, they are getting 40 million new clients and additional premiums per month/year.

Obviously, this is not accurate down to the cent and only used as an example. Dont quote me on numbers.

"Insert witty quotation here"

 
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July 5 2012, 7:18 PM 

Bronco,

I believe, correct me if im wrong the inssurance companies have to pass on the savings under the bill. I believe the bill requires 80% of all the money the insurance companies collect to go directly to healthcare. Thats why some of the insurance companies will be sending us out a rebate check. One if the few provisions i like about the bill as well as insurance companies not being allowed to turn away customers with pre existing conditions.

However, it is a fact my costs have risen 20% over the last two years do largly to the fact insurance companies can no longer exclude individuals.

There is no simple answer to solving our healthcare problems and i dont see this bill as the answer as it stands. Ive adressed my biggest concern about the bill and as stated above there are also aspects i like about the bill too.

 
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July 5 2012, 7:34 PM 

I think we're getting to the meat and potatoes of one of the reasons our health care is so expensive. Right now the people who have no health care for whatever reason and the illegals are basically getting free care via the emergency rooms etc. and somehow the hospitals make everyone else pay for it in the form of higher costs which translate into higher insurance premiums for all. How much the tax will make a difference is anyone's guess. If you are on welfare you might not pay tax anyway and the illegals will continue as they are now. How much this will reduce hospital costs (and insurance premiums) is anyone's guess at this point. A real nightmare of a situation for sure.

 
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murf
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July 5 2012, 8:29 PM 

No d-bag you are the one that cant understand the conversation.

Have someone read this to you...

The Welfare queens are not going to be paying for anything!
If you honestly believe that there are tens of millions of working class poor folks running to the hospital, then you are brain damaged.


http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

 
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ItmightbeJB
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July 5 2012, 10:51 PM 

Bronco. I'm glad to hear how open you've always been to ideas from the right. Unfortunately President Kardashian and the Pelosi-Reid trinity haven't been nearly as open as you. So put your crickets away because the premise of your question is untrue. Let's have ourselves a little history review here. First, Republicans weren't even invited to your healthcare orgy. The Democrats locked the doors and didn't let them in. Remember?

Second, Republicans have offered several common sense approaches to do what was supposed to be the plan, e.g.; allowing groups to purchase healthcare insurance across state lines just like you can with auto insurance now. They've also suggested allowing groups to come together to form conglomerates to increase their purchasing power. And most even agree, as do I, that the existing condition clause is a good thing.

Insuring 30 million people without healthcare was never supposed to be the crux of the debate until Obama slammed the door shut. And with 12 to 20 million of these people being illegally in the country in the first place your highly dubious figure of 40 million doesn't pass the smell test. But even using your figure of 40 million, can you see a problem with distributing that many people across the nation with the same amount of doctors we have now? Poor planning my friend. In their haste to put together a healthcare bill they forgot to make one that makes sense.

I know you have an adversarial attitude toward doctors because of your particular area of expertise in the legal arena. But even you should be able to admit that doctors perform a lot of pro bono work at free clinics and many even waive their fees altogether for particular procedures. And good upper and middle class people across the nation support these efforts. The St. Jude's Childrens Hospital in Tennessee never charges any of their patients because of people's donations and caring physicians. I'm willing to bet that one or two of these donors might even be Republicans. So if you want to brand the right as wanting to kill off grandma (a time-tested liberal tactic) go right ahead. It's curious that you accuse Republicans of wanting to kill off the poor then in the same breath you credit Bob Dole and Mitt Romney for having the idea. Irony?

So yes, I think you've missed quite a lot and you're "fair assesment" is filled with hyperbole and misses the mark.



    
This message has been edited by ItmightbeJB from IP address 74.215.234.122 on Jul 5, 2012 10:56 PM


 
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Hook
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July 6 2012, 3:32 AM 

Vulture...your insurance rates increasing at a skyrocketing pace defines one of the core reasons why comprehensive health care reform is vital.

And you made a totally incorrect assumption when you remarked that rates from the last two years increased because hospitals started providing unlimited emergency room care two years sgo. They've been doing that long, long before the Health Care Act.

JB, you bring up doctors? Surely you don't suggest that doctors speak in one voice against this legislation. If that's your assumption, you should realize that the American Medical Association endorses it.

And Murf, you hopeless, factless and blabbering dolt, yes....the whole reason the mandate exists is because tens of millions of people do not have health insurance. None of your puppet masters are denying that, but then you never understand what people say anyway.

Now these folks have access to health care at far lower rates, which also gives them access to preventative care. Preventative care is far cheaper in the big picture. Certainly it's more cost effective than having us insured working stiffs(it sounds more and more like you're not in that club) pick up the tab in the emergency rooms.

It's remarkable that you're clueless about the cost crisis connected to uninsured emergency care. But again...it's you. Your cognition just doesn't extend to anything beyond squeeling some nursery ryhmes and proclaiming yourself a victim. You define a welfare queen.

 
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ItmightbeJB
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July 6 2012, 8:27 AM 

Here is a list of five taxes that will be levied in 2013, conveniently AFTER the 2012 election:



1. The Medical Device Manfacturing Tax

A 2.3% tax on Medical devices such a pacemakers, stents, prosthetic limbs, etc. Ten year cost? $20 billion. Several small companies have already laid off workers and cut their research budgets in anticipation of this tax.

2. The High Medical Bills Tax

Americans can currently take a tax deduction if their medical bills exceed 7.5% of their income. This threshold will now become 10.0%. Ten year cost? $15 billion.

3. The Flexible Spending Account Cap

Medical spending accounts are currently uncapped. In 2013 they will be capped at $2,500 per family. Thats about 1/3rd the cost of a set of dental braces for your child. This is particularly cruel to families with special needs children whose tuition costs can exceed $14K per year. Ten year cost? $13 billion.

4. Surtax on Investment Income

The capital gains tax rises from 15% to 20% beginning in 2013. The top dividend rate rises from 15% to 39.6%. This makes the top capital gains tax rate 23.8% and the top dividend rate 43.4%. Ten year cost? $123 billion.

5. Medical Payroll Tax Increase

This tax soaks your employer for $86 billion over the next ten years.


I better stop now at five because I can feel myself starting to have false outrage. happy.gif






    
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Homey
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July 6 2012, 9:34 AM 

Troop, you talk about the free loaders that have to buy insurance. Most of these people I bet fall into the catagory where they will receive large tax credit (not deductions). Since half the country pays no Federal tax, I bet a lot of these people will now get a check in the mail instead of paying zero, and where do you think this money will come from? You are just shifting around the cost. The illegals will still be status quo.

"you should realize that the American Medical Association endorses it", c'mon, you know thats just politics if not just outright thuggery in getting endorsements.


    
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July 6 2012, 9:49 AM 

I give Dole and Romney a ton of credit here. But that is it. The rest of the right in Congress acted like this legislation was kryptonite. Are you doubting that? Seriously?

On a related note, it is hysterical to watch the Romney camp balance the highwire of admitting Obamacare was actually first Romneycare and then also not pissing off their base. At some point, he has to make a decision. Intelligent Independents will know he is a B.S. artist and that its impossible for him to disavow the health care plan he once supported.

And sure there are doctors that do good work. You cant argue with St. Jude. I am a donor of St. Judge.
Not sure where you were going with that.



"Insert witty quotation here"

 
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July 6 2012, 9:52 AM 

And Fulcher, I dont believe this bill is the cure all either.

However, it is a start. God knows the parties couldnt put anything together for a problem that began 40 years ago.
We had to start somewhere. We knew Bush wasnt going to do a GD thing about it. Too much of pansy to piss off the doctors' unions.

Its a start. We will see where it goes.

Regardless, something had to be done.

"Insert witty quotation here"

 
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Synonymous Bengal
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July 6 2012, 10:41 AM 

JB I respect your opinion but have to quibble with some of your assertions:

Buying health insurance across state lines was a Republican "solution" to the problem: Georgia did it, and it had almost no impact whatsoever.

Republicans "suggested" people buy in groups to reduce costs: Suggestions are fine, but we elect people to take action, to do something. Congress and presidency were under Republican control under Bush, and did not make any significant accomplishments regarding healthcare. It's easy to lob out suggestions to do something else instead when you don't like what's being done, but frankly, they missed their chance. Lots of people have lots of suggestions on what might help if it were to someday happen, but tossing out suggestions here and there but never doing anything about it doesn't solve problems.

Republicans were "locked out" of the healthcare debate by Dems: Republican Senators attached 200 amendments to the original bill. Pretty impressive for a group that wasn't even there.

You suggested that the newly covered will largely be illegal immigrants: The expansion is mostly through Medicaid, and illegals do not qualify for Medicaid.

A favorite "Liberal tactic" is to suggest Repubs want to kill grandma: I'm younger than you, so maybe this opinion was formed from some debate before my time, but it was Republicans who were spreading propaganda about death panels immediately after the legislation was approved, including some specifically citing grandma. These were party leaders and respected Republican pundits. At the very least, I think you would have to say this is an "American tactic" not a liberal one.



"We do do, and we do it at a very, very high level," Lewis said.

 
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murf
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July 6 2012, 3:18 PM 

I have tried to explain things to the idiot, but he refuses to listen.

He has trouble deciding who he loves more, himself or that clown in office.

Bottom line...
The Welfare queens still receive free sh!t.
The illegals still receive free sh!t.
The working middle class, takes one in the azz again and brain damaged idiots like this Trooper clown love it.

Every tax they get naked and cheer, hurts the working middle class more than anyone.
If a liberal has an idea, it will wind up costing the working middle class...how on earth anyone can support these clowns is amazing to me.

http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

 
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July 6 2012, 4:46 PM 

This new tax law doesn't address how to handle the ones who pay no tax (welfare, working poor with real low income below tax threshhold) and the illegals. I'd like to get some data on the head count on all three of these groups - obviously the illegals will be much harder to get.

 
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murf
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July 6 2012, 7:19 PM 

Bear, that is exactly right!

I don't know what the exact numbers are, but if you go with the extreme number of 40 million people not having insurance and you strat eliminating the obvious ones and you add it all together, I would take a wild guess and say that you don't have that big of a problem with a small percentage of people that use the emergency room.

Think about it in real life terms here.

The illegals are the biggest problem.
Then the welfare nation.
Then the old people that simply can't afford to take care of themselves and carry additional insurance.
The 4th group would almost have to be the college kids.

So, you take a look at the 4 major groups and then think about how often people visit the emergency room.
I was put in a hospital 2 years ago b/c I had a heat stroke, other than that, have not been to the hospital in years for myself and I have insurance.

Pills are the second biggest issue.
Doctors give them away like candy.


http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

 
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July 6 2012, 8:36 PM 

The consensus estimate that I've seen is 31 million.

Again, illegal immigrants cannot get Medicaid, so I have no idea where you guys keep getting that. You guys don't seem to euther as you just keep saying it without any explanation outside of "it's liberal, so it has to benefit illegals b/c my delusional belief is that liberals love immigrants and hate America."

Lastly, you keep saying this will affect college kids. When I was in college, you were required to have health insurance. If you didn't provide proof of a private plan, you were automatically enrolled in the university plan, which was pretty damn good. So this idea that it's college kids taking advantage of the system seems kind of ridiculous.

College-aged kids, maybe.

"We do do, and we do it at a very, very high level," Lewis said.

 
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ItmightbeJB
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July 7 2012, 7:49 AM 

CIN-C the Republicans were indeed shut out of the planning for Obamacare. By the time the bill got to the Senate floor it was already a done deal for all practical purposes. Now, your protestations about the weakness of offering suggestions don't hold water when viewed in their proper context. That's unfair. It's like criticizing the guy outside your house for not yelling loudly enough when he was shouting that your house is on fire. Maybe if you'd let him inside you would have heard him.

And to even suggest that the Republican are anywhere close to the Democrats when it comes to accusing the other side of wanting to kill off grandma is simply ridiculous! Sorry but it's not even close. I don't expect you to know what happened before you were born but I can tell you that Democrats have pounced on every opportunity to accuse Repubs. of trying to kill off grandma since the inception of medicare, medicaid and social security. I do however expect you to remember the (recent) DNC commercial showing a Paul Ryan lookalike pushing grandma off a cliff in a wheelchair. I also expect you to remember Rep. Alan Grayson standing up on the record in Congress saying "Republicans want you to just die!" So yeah, this is about a 90% Liberal tactic.

You're obviously a highly intelligent, articulate spokesman for your viewpoint. But the success of your viewpoint spells the downfall of what was once the greatest nation in history. Your Democratic party has now succeeded in perpetuating the socialist-statist lifestyle in this once free country. Romney doesn't stand a chance in hell in this election because the food stamp president has pounced on the entitlement attitude of the "GiveMe" generation.

And did you seriously just suggest that illegals won't benefit from Obamacare? really? C'mon you're smarter than that.


    
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murf
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July 7 2012, 8:36 AM 

Nobody has suggested that the illegals get medicaid.
I am saying that they are a huge part of the problem when you are talking about using the emergency room with no insurance.
I would even guess that a large portion of them do receive some type of services.
You do realize there is an investigation being started over the IRS giving illegals INCOME TAX returns don't you?
The illegals in this country has gone out of control for decades and we need someone in office that will stop this sh!t.

The college kids were a big talking point, why do you think the new tax gives a family an opportunity to keep the kids on the policy up to a certain age?
You are correct, it is more about the age not the actual title of being a student.

The Republicans suck azz, but can't be blamed for not giving any alternatives because that whack job b!tch locked them out of the "transparent" negotiations.



http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

 
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July 7 2012, 8:45 AM 

I'm not saying there will be no benefits, but yes I would like to hear and understand them rather than take it as a matter of faith.

I can tell you that here in Virginia, Medicaid eligibility requirements are some of the most strict in the nation, and as a result we have one of the largest networks of free clinics of any state in the nation (Va created the free clinic network, they proudly claim).

Now here, illegals can benefit from free clinics, but they won't be eligible for Medicaid. Some worry that if Medicaid is expanded the # of free clinics will decrease as fewer people need them. This would seemingly be more likely to result in less health care, free or otherwise, for illegals in Virginia, not more. However, Virginia seems likely to not take part in the expansion, which the Supremes ruled was a state prerogative, so it may be a moot point here. But my point is, I don't see how Obamacare equates to a handout for illegals. Doesn't seem to be the case in Va anyway, unless I'm missing something.

I know you think I'm trying to serve as some kind of spokesperson for the Democratic party, but you are wrong. All this information comes from people I've spoken to that work in the medical field in Virginia, I'm just relaying what they've told me. They could be wrong of course, it's a complex piece of legislation. I actually didn't even support this health care reform going all the way back to the 2008 campaign, so I'm not exactly in the bag for it or anything.

But, just because I didn't support it doesn't mean I don't want to understand it or learn more about it. I'm not going to just say the whole thing is evil because I didn't like it, and I'm not a conspiracy theorist so I don't think it's a secret plot to take away our guns and freedoms and encourage abortion and destroy Christianity. I try to be on the side of truth, rather than misinformation or propaganda (which absolutely comes from both sides). So yes, if you know something about it that I don't regarding how it benefits illegals, please share.

"We do do, and we do it at a very, very high level," Lewis said.

 
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Hook
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Re: *

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July 7 2012, 11:55 AM 

OK, JB. Just how exactly does the Health Care Act benefit illegals?

It doesn't wash to say that they can now get medical care in hospitals. THEY ALREADY CAN. So there is zip in the way of a benefit on this score.

Are you upset because some of them might come out of the shadows and buy insurance? I'm not predicting that would happen, but so what if it did? For one,they would be paying for it. For two, it gets a lot of the care out of the emergency rooms, which is what drives the need for the mandate in the first place.

I think another poster put the total number of uninsured Americans at 30 million but I heard an analyst on TV today say it's closer to 47 million. Suffice it to say, there are tens of millions without health care, most of them poor.

It is so ridiculous to claim that this is redistribution of America's wealth to the poor. It's an accountability mechanism to get the poor and uninsured paying something into the Health Care Kitty for a change.

That makes it welfare reform. And that puts some of you neocons firmly in the camps of the Welfare Queens.

Frankly, if a right winger would propose a program of denying care to the uninsured in hospitals, I could at least respect the position, even if I couldn't agree with it. That being the case, someone other than the insured working stiffs has to start paying for this care in general, and this emergency room care in particular.

I'm going to be surprised if 80% of the current uninsured aren't paying premiums and living just fine with it. In fact, the non-welfare queens that I want to believe most of them are will most likely be glad to buy the insurance that they can finally afford.

Of course there will be some welfare queens. They will come from all over, and not just the inner city. They'll try to beat the system and not buy the insurance, and they'll get a whopping penalty of 1% of their adjusted gross (that's how I understand the reports, but someone correct me if I'm wrong) if they back out of it.

Call it a penalty or call it a tax. It's such a meaningless distinction. Obamacare is threatening welfare queens, and it's turned the neocons into contorted and disingenious rage. It's an amusing spectacle to behold.

 
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Re: *

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July 7 2012, 1:19 PM 

JB said - "CIN-C the Republicans were indeed shut out of the planning for Obamacare."

Is that a joke? The Dems wanted the public option. That was the initial goal. The Repubs forced them to compromise on that issue which is how we ended up with Bob-Dole Care.



"Insert witty quotation here"

 
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ItmightbeJB
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Re: *

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July 7 2012, 2:43 PM 

Bronco you just pegged the baloney meter again happy.gif

 
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Homer
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Re: *

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July 7 2012, 3:04 PM 

but does Bronco know he is pegging the baloney or just naive. I have always wondered that on his posts.

 
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bengalbear
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Re: *

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July 7 2012, 3:29 PM 

I may have missed something but has anyone come up with a guesstimate of the # of illegals there are and to what extent they are taxing our already burdened health care system? There are a lot of holes that need to be addressed in this.

 
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ItmightbeJB
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Re: *

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July 7 2012, 3:47 PM 

Bear I've seen estimates anywhere between 11 and 20 million. I don't think anyone knows for sure, and that's part of the problem too. But even if the 11 million is true the amount they cost us is huge. Not just in services they get free but also in the income taxes they don't pay. That's not to mention how much cash they send out of this country and into Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador and everywhere else that devalues our currency so that everything we buy costs more. They've overtaxed our schools and emergency rooms to the point where my recent 3 day hospital stay cost almost $12k.

Bottom line is that this is a number so large it might not even be quantifiable.




 
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murf
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Re: *

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July 7 2012, 4:02 PM 

False rage?
No, there is nothing false about being p!ssed off about you liberal fuching idiots destroying the greatest country on earth.

I am not working class poor...yet.
I have done decent for myself and my family and considering the background that I escaped, I am very proud that I have managed to make it this far, and trust me, far is nothing special.
I have been around the working class poor my entire life, raised in a family that was very much working class poor and have many friends that are now facing this path in life.
I will always defend the pride of these people despite the daily attempts to make them part of the system.
They sacrifice things on a daily basis to stay off of the system.
So when I compare their lives to the leaches of society, I get very frustrated at the system.
Then when I read a complete morons arrogant comments, like this d-bag that calls himself Trooper, it gets the blood pumping.

Take a look at the 2 groups.
Group A..the working class poor
Never ask for help, but if they did, they would be denied any assistance because as a family they would make over 18k a year.
Pride is their fuel and they believe in words like ACCOUNTABILITY/RESPONSIBILITY/MORALS/RESPECT.
They work 2-3 jobs and many of them do side jobs when they have time to make some extra cash to provide their children little things.
Some work 60-70 hours in a week just to make sure the bills are paid.

Group B...
The leaches of society created by liberal idiots that tell them that DESERVE benefits provided by everyone else.
The cowards that will not wake up and find a job, even if it is Mcdonalds or some box store.
The leaches that drive newer cars, have expensive cell phones and complain that they don't get enough money.
The dirty wenches that have 3-4-5 kids by 3-4-5 different cowards that refuse to take care of them, that walk around b!tching that they should have every right to move into the house next door to someone that works everyday.
Add the illegals that suck the national t!t dry on a daily basis that don't pay a dime into the system they leach off of.

Now...
Who would you rather support?

The Health Care tax provides the leaches another free ride, while the working class poor will have to find a way to pay more money.
The fantasy that you are going to see insurance companies lower premiums is about on par as seeing a fuching unicorn flying over your house tonight.
Insurance companies now have the power to raise your rates if you have a sick member on your policy.
They do that now, so don't even attempt to deny that bullsh!t, you are talking to a person that is paying HIGH RISK insurance premiums because I have a sick child.
The illegals will still use the system.
The leaches will still use the emergency room as a doctor, but the only difference is they will now have a card that the FUCHING TAX PAYERS ARE PAYING for and still have no worries about affording the visit.
The government and the insurance companies both make money on the backs of the working class poor and the middle class.
Congratulations, you now created yet another avenue of TAX.

You do realize that every time one of you liberal idiots champion a mickey mouse agenda, it cost a ton of money.
The housing market crashed because the liberal idiots wanted the poor to have the opportunity to purchase a home...how did that work out for the country?
The utility bills have been going higher and higher because we have liberal idiots wanting to destroy the coal industry because they read some liberal whack jobs fear mongering planet destruction theory.

False rage?
LMFAO...
nothing false about it.

You want to return this country back to being the worlds greatest country.
Cut welfare down to the point of absolute bare minimum...enough to pay some bills and feed the children.
Eliminate the EPA and create a new program that is not filled with a liberal agenda obssessed with global warming theories.
Round up the illegals and deport them.
Eliminate all programs that provide a t1t for laziness.
Create a tax system that is fair and balanced.
Lower the taxes on all business, big and small.

Time to tighten the belt, not create more dependents.



http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

 
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Hook
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Re: *

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July 7 2012, 4:12 PM 

Phony rage from a phony ranter.

The working poor with pride don't get nailed. They get a chance to buy health insurance at a far lower price than was previously available to them.

The leaches, many of whom you support and who could care less that their emergency room bills are picked up by others, will now have to pony up and buy insurance or pay a mandate penalty. It's about time.

Murf, you're the classic combination of ignorance and phoniness. I'm in the corner of those who want accountability.

You've got an Eisenhower republican sitting in the White House, you invent phony socialistic motives and lie and rant yourself into a raging lunatic, and can't even comprehend how you contradict yourself.


 
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Homer
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Re: 'Obamacare' ruling

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July 7 2012, 4:15 PM 

"The Republicans are too afraid to piss off part of their base that relies on the migrant workers to work for cheap labor in their businesses. "

Seriously, if it was all up to the Repubs, we wouldn't have an illegal problem, just how many do you think rely on the cheap labor?

 
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bengalbear
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Re: *

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July 7 2012, 7:16 PM 

The way I see it - I may be wrong is the tax is an attempt to get those with no insurance to be covered with a type of insurance (paid for by the tax perhaps) but the ones on welfare and the illegals will still get treated and they will in all probably not pay and the cost becomes a bad debt to be borne by the hospital, HMO or whatever. The challenge here is how do we get these people on some type of insurance or will this be a rolling accummulation of bad debts to go on forever. This is sort of like me going to a bar and putting it on the tab for as long I go to the bar (assuming the bar is obligated to serve me). With these folks how will that sit if an illegal comes in and the hospital refuses to treat him and says "we need your insurance" ?

 
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murf
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Re: *

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July 8 2012, 4:53 AM 

The leaches, many of whom you support and who could care less that their emergency room bills are picked up by others, will now have to pony up and buy insurance or pay a mandate penalty. It's about time.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You are mentally unstable, or you are just that fuching stupid to understand the difference between REAL LIFE and your liberal agenda.


THE LEACHES WILL NOT HAVE TO PAY A DIME!
THEY CONTINUE TO GET FREE SH!T!!!!!

WOW!
How do you function in society without hurting yourself?



http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

 
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Re: *

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July 8 2012, 7:57 AM 

lets break this down one by one...

How will the leaches (unemployed/welfare/illegals/etc) get free medical?

Is this different from how they obtain medical today? Explain?

Will the leaches (besides illegals) be taxed if they do not purchase some type of medical insurance?

How will the illegals be assessed payment of their free medical care? (please note that the only medical care we assume they can receive is emergency room services - they do not qualify for follow up, post op, vision, dental, annuals, etc)

How is obamacare different from Romneycare?

Do the bungles suck?


 
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bronco
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Re: *

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July 8 2012, 10:52 AM 

Hey, take it easy Troop.

Murf and Homey both told me 3 years ago that Obama would take my guns. They were right. Wait a second, let me check my gun closet. Huh, they are still there. Weird.

More garbage from the right. They actually pass a bill whereby the hospital bills now get paid and folks that are not indigent have to pony up for some it and the right screams bloody murder. God, they are so predictable. It nauseates me to hear their constant complaining. We elect a guy that actually tries to do something about health care (compared to the righty president) and they scream bloody murder. He doesn something about immigration which their guy also avoided for 8 years and they scream bloody murder. We get Bin Laden and 90% of Al Queda's leaderships under Obama and the right cries that Obama didn't get them, the military did.

Whatever. I am tired of their petulance and their childish behavior. Take your ball and go home. The party of no ideas.
Blame the lawyers, that will solve health care. LMAO. 2% of costs!!!!!!!!!! 2%!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Its time to legislate Rpeublicans. 3 years of obstructionism has taken its toll. Crying in the corner and pouting is no way to be a leader and legislate. The hypocrisy is disgusting. The Repubs vote for things when their guy is in office and then turn coward and sit on their hands when a Democrat is in office.

They even have logical thinking guys like JB crying over recess appointments when the Repubs did the same thing (actually every administration has done the same thing for 50 years).

Quit supporting these losers on the right who DONT DO A GODDAMN THING!
They live their lives in fear of Grover. They are afraid to LEGISLATE. That is their GODDAMN job.
You righties will at least admit that one right?
You will admit that Republican Congressmen cower and tuck their tail between their legs when it comes to big bad Grover, right?
Its hilarious to me who he owns your asses. No spine.
Afraid of Grover.
Pathetic.

"Insert witty quotation here"

 
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ItmightbeJB
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Re: *

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July 8 2012, 11:54 AM 

Ummm. My dog's name is Chelsea, not Grover. And I'm not afraid of her thank you very much. happy.gif

Regarding recess appointment Bronco. I've tried over and over again to make this distinction but I've apparently failed. I'll take another stab at it here though. You are correct, every president that I can think of has made recess appointments. There are compelling reasons to allow our presidents to have this power. Sometimes things have to be done quickly when Congress is in recess due to some national emergency or urgent need.

The current president however has taken this power to an extent beyond what is was intended for. How? By making his recess appointments at a time when Congress is NOT IN RECESS. It's an obvious attempt to avoid congressional scrutiny of the people he places in positions of power, i.e.: judges, energy czars, cheeseburger czars, drinking fountain czars, ad nauseum. Now here's the rub, this is the ONLY president in US history to EVER make a recess appointment while congress was still in session. Can we all agree that the reason they're called "recess appointments" is because they are meant to be made ONLY when congress in in RECESS? Thank you, Good night and I love you all.

Regarding the prospect of losing your guns someday, I suggest you read the text of the United Nations Conference on the Arms Trade Treaty (ATT) before being dismissive of its' impact. This treaty is being touted by George Soros (via Media Matters) with the approval of both Hillary Clinton and President Obama. For instance, here are some of the more worrisome points for me:

1. Enact internationally agreed to licensing requirements for Americans.

2. Confiscate and destroy unauthorized firearms of Americans while allowing the US government to keep theirs.

3. Ban the trade, sale and private ownership of semi-automatic weapons.

4. Create and mandate an international registry to organize an encompassing gun confiscation inside America.


Is it "alarmist" to be concerned about such things?











 
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(Login broncobux)
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Re: *

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July 8 2012, 12:14 PM 

I still have my guns. Homey and Murf said I wouldnt have my guns when Obama was done with his presidence. Another scare tactic gone awry.

You guys need to quit being puppets of the NRA. Think for yourself. Dont allow some billion dollar group think for you.

I dont know how many times I told you this, but I will say it again. I dont have any respect for Congressional sessions when Congrss is not in session. You are someone that is now perpetuating a farce. Harry Reid tried the same garbage when Bush was in president. It was wrong then and it is wrong now. Thus "Pro-Forma" garbage is just that - GARBAGE. It doesnt matter who is in power when it happens.

Jesus, JB, at least admit that it is 100% Bullsh!t, no matter what party does it.
You can do that, right? You can think for yourself? Dont let the party affiliation affect your credibility.

Honestly, I dont care what you say about Grover.
If you cant tell that EVERY SINGLE GODDAMN REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMAN lives in fear of that man, you are blind. Is it intentional blindness?

Wake up. Dont let Grover think for you. You have been through more in life than I have, but I would hope that you would see that garbage.

Then again, you are the one claiming a "Pro-Forma" session is a real Congressional Sesssion. You know that 99% of the Congress is on recess, right? They just keep guys there to read into the session. Its a bullsh!t tactic. I call the Dems out when they do it.

Can we talk about the real issue here? The Pro-Forma Sessions wouldnt be necessary if the Republicans would allow judicial appointments and cabinet appointments.

3 years and they cant approve nominees?

OBSTRUCTIONISTS. GARBAGE.



"Insert witty quotation here"


    
This message has been edited by broncobux from IP address 24.234.30.172 on Jul 8, 2012 3:25 PM


 
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Sam Wyche
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Re: *

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July 8 2012, 1:08 PM 

"The Republicans are too afraid to piss off part of their base that relies on the migrant workers to work for cheap labor in their businesses. "

Seriously, if it was all up to the Repubs, we wouldn't have an illegal problem, just how many do you think rely on the cheap labor?


Not true. I believe that W honestly did want to do something about immigration but he could not even get his OWN party behind it. The irony is that some like Rick Santorum (PA...not anywhere near the Mexico border and a state with very few illegals compared to even Western Ohio) took tough stances on immigration yet the GOP in other parts of the country did not unite behind their president on this issue. Maybe that's why Obama has been more effective...the same Republicans who are for tougher border security and immigration laws are still for those stances, and at least some Dems choose to support their leader on this issue.

It is incredible just how split this issue is! Bleeding hearts see this as insensitive and un-American. The wealthy Republicans who depend on this see this as free market and thus also see deporting these same illegals as un-American but from a different perspective. I think a majority of the country is for a sensible solution on this issue, but like health care, there are different motives and different thoughts on how to execute this. Personally, I would like to deport all illegals, but not even a conservative of Rick Santorum's beliefs would support that because that would be very unpopular in many parts of the country. I think USCthree, one of the most conservative Republicans on here, said that his neighbor is an illegal and he would not want him to be deported.

 
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bengalbear
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Illegals

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July 8 2012, 2:17 PM 

One quick question on illegals - If they are staying in this country why not force them to get a green card - I worked with people who had them and they had to register every so often. Or are the illegals deliberately kept in secret so they can be part of the cheap labor pool willing to work for cash only and below minimum wage? The companies using them would not want to ruin a source of cheap labor.

 
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ItmightbeJB
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Re: Illegals

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July 8 2012, 2:35 PM 


Bear, they've already got as many green cards as they have social security numbers. They know how to play this game better than we do. The E-Verify system attempts to address many of these scams but a certain group of politicians are deathly afraid it will be too successful so they oppose it.


 
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murf
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Re: Illegals

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July 8 2012, 3:28 PM 

More garbage from the right. They actually pass a bill whereby the hospital bills now get paid and folks that are not indigent have to pony up for some it and the right screams bloody murder. God, they are so predictable. It nauseates me to hear their constant complaining. We elect a guy that actually tries to do something about health care (compared to the righty president) and they scream bloody murder. He doesn something about immigration which their guy also avoided for 8 years and they scream bloody murder. We get Bin Laden and 90% of Al Queda's leaderships under Obama and the right cries that Obama didn't get them, the military did.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You have been watching Ed shultz again!

HOSPITAL BILLS NOW GET PAID...
By whom?
THE FUCHING TAX PAYERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't give a sh!t if it makes you sick to hear warm blooded americans defend america against a socialist cult movement that is hell bent on bankrupting this country by trying to live a Disney World existence.

3 years of Obstruction?
You might want to read some history on who controlled the white house and the congress when the messiah took over.
Not to mention the fact, the dream weavers did nothing but obstruct the former regime.
They even went as far as bashing troops to make the man look bad.

Immigration?
You call giving fuching criminals a free ride doing something?
So the unemployment rate is hovering around 20% and we have a President writing free passes to illegals to work and you think that is a good thing?
Blow me with your bullsh!t government math, anyone with a brain understands that unemployment is hovering around 20%.
Only an idiot and MSNBC want to believe it is lower than that.


Your guns?
Would be gone if the NRA did not operate with balls.
Sorry, but Hillary is still trying to back door law abiding citizens.

http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

 
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(Login broncobux)
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Re: Illegals

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July 8 2012, 3:32 PM 

Wyche, I dont see it as insensitive or mean. (Then again, I consider myself a moderate who leans left).

Let's call this the "round up the possee and eradictae them illegals back to their homeland of Mexico" theory. The #1 thing that jumps out at me as it relates to this theory is COST. How much is it going to cost to coordinate Homeland Security, FBI, Local Police, ect to coordinate and round up every illegal. You are looking at TRILLIONS here. Second, other than following Hitler's friendly greeting of "Papers, Please", how do you propose doing this? I will tell you this, if you do it in a manner that affects a US citizen's right against illegal search and seizure, you will get lawsuits and extensive litigation. Second, who is going to payfor the cost to ship back all the "illegals" to their country? How about the Cost on that? LOL
Some people are such dipsh!ts that they dont think this one all the way through. You are worried about illegals taking those precious jobs of dishwashers, landscapers and tomato pickers, but what about the cost in kicking them out? DOH!

what other ideas do you have?

For the record, I am not for Amnesty. I do like most of te DREAM Act. More importantly, I would like to have a process that is simple to understand, simple to apply for and takes a few years to complete.



"Insert witty quotation here"

 
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Fulcher
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Re: Illegals

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July 8 2012, 3:37 PM 

Im a proud member of the NRA, just sayin' happy.gif

 
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(Login broncobux)
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Re: Illegals

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July 8 2012, 4:05 PM 

"HOSPITAL BILLS NOW GET PAID...
By whom?
THE FUCHING TAX PAYERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't give a sh!t if it makes you sick to hear warm blooded americans defend america against a socialist cult movement that is hell bent on bankrupting this country by trying to live a Disney World existence."

Save your idiocy for someone else, Murf. You know as well as I do that we were paying for it before with higher MRI and ER costs. Now, the prices for it will go down. As I said before, the premiums might rise, but its a pill we have to take (pun intended). Somebody had to act and do something. The right and the fukking doctor's unions werent going to do sh!t and YOU KNOW IT. This isnt the end of the world. It will be modified and changed. Its a step and necessary one.

"3 years of Obstruction?
You might want to read some history on who controlled the white house and the congress when the messiah took over."

--Yes, Murf, 3 years. If you recall, the blue dog Democrats wouldnt go with Barry on the public Option. Hence, they couldnt get anythign passed the filabuster. Do we have to go over this again? You want numbers? You want FACTS? How about this - the Republicans have used the Filibuster more times than any other Congress in the historty of our county in the past 3 years. And they more than doubled the records from last time. So, yeah. they are 100% obstructionists. THAT IS NOT DEBATABLE, SIR. You are entitled to your own opinion, but NOT YOUR OWN FACTS. Quit lying, Murf.

"Not to mention the fact, the dream weavers did nothing but obstruct the former regime."

--Show me the numbers on filibustering between the Bush years and Obama years. (PLEASE SHOW ME - I CANT WAIT FOR YOU TO DESTROY YOURSELF ON THIS ISSUE - PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE SHOW ME THE NUMBERS - IM WAITING.........)

"Immigration?
You call giving fuching criminals a free ride doing something?"

-- Its called FUKKING DOING SOMETHING, RETARD. At least they did something. Bush passed the buck. NEXT ISSUE.


"So the unemployment rate is hovering around 20% and we have a President writing free passes to illegals to work and you think that is a good thing? Blow me with your bullsh!t government math, anyone with a brain understands that unemployment is hovering around 20%. Only an idiot and MSNBC want to believe it is lower than that."

BLOW ME with your Rush Limbaugh and Willie Cunningham math. Anyone with a brain and is not a Rush or Willie C or Glenn BEck disciple understands the unemployment rate is not 20%.


"Your guns? ould be gone if the NRA did not operate with balls.
Sorry, but Hillary is still trying to back door law abiding citizens."

--- Way to back track Murf. You and Homey told me my guns would be gone after Obama was done. Face facts, nothing has happened to my guns in 3 years. they still shoot and they are still in my possession. YOU WERE WRONG. ADMIT IT, MONKEY BOY.


"Insert witty quotation here"

 
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Sam Wyche
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Re: Illegals

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July 8 2012, 4:34 PM 

--- Way to back track Murf. You and Homey told me my guns would be gone after Obama was done. Face facts, nothing has happened to my guns in 3 years. they still shoot and they are still in my possession. YOU WERE WRONG. ADMIT IT, MONKEY BOY.

Good luck getting murf to admit that he is wrong. He still has plans to go to Gary Russell's Hall of Fame induction as the 'great goal line back' after a whopping 3 touchdowns with the Steelers, plans to relive Laverneus Coles' All-Pro season replacing TJ Housh, Rey Maualuga and Chase Coffman being the best players at their positions in the 2009 draft, etc. You could pull up the last "Obama will take away my guns" post and it still will not register. The murfster is not capable of admitting when he is wrong, which is all too often...

 
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psychostats
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Re: Illegals

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July 8 2012, 5:22 PM 

The one I remember well is about Andre Caldwell being "more talented" than Houshmandzadeh. LOL

 
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bengalbear
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Unemployment #

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July 8 2012, 8:02 PM 

The unemployment # that gets the most attention is the U2 number which measures people drawing unemployment now and that is 8.2%. There is another # the U6 # which measures unemployment, underemployed and those that have given up - that is about 16.8%. You have to take those numbers in conjunction with the labor participation rate and that number is 63%.

 
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Homey
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Re: Illegals

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July 9 2012, 9:57 AM 

"You and Homey told me my guns would be gone after Obama was done.

-The Bronco



One question before you premature ejaculate, Is Obama done with his presidency? huh? what?
chirp chirp

But lets see what he has done so far, he put two Justices in that do not recognize poeple's 2nd amendment rights, Doh! and is currently negotiating with the UN on and international gun ban.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

sigh, I think of you Bronco whenever I read that quote.

 
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Re: Illegals

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July 9 2012, 10:04 AM 

Who do you think is good in that quote?

I GOTTA hear this.

"Insert witty quotation here"

 
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bengalbear
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Re: *

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July 9 2012, 11:26 AM 

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. "

That sounds lika a mantra the repubs/conservatives/obstructionists would follow.


 
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Homey
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Re: Illegals

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July 9 2012, 11:37 AM 

Before you rub one out against your desk, I meant that term losely. happy.gif

 
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murf
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Re: Illegals

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July 9 2012, 2:21 PM 

Congress....
You can fuching call them whatever you want to twist and spin the truth, but a democrat is a democrat and the democrats controlled congress when the great messiah walked on water right into the white house.
They got the Health Care Tax bill shoved up the azz of the tax paying americans without even reading the bill.

Spare me your tear filled complaints about obstruction.
Of course one side is going to c0ck block the other, that is nothing new and it will never end, but to pretend it is hampering the great one from making this world perfect is just stupid.

Guns....
Yes, we love to CLING TO OUR GUNS AND OUR BIBLES..
(I don't give a sh!t about the bible thing, but it is obvious the liberals love to bow to muslims and bash christians)
Mickey CAN'T take our guns away, he would run around the Garden naked if he could pull it off, but until he gets more whack job extreme liberals on the court, he has little chance to do anything besides create more red tape/regulations and pointless laws to make it harder for law abiding tax payers to protect themselves.
So yes, I was WRONG saying that he was going to take our guns, but he does support the Hillary backdoor attempt thru the UN.

Illegals....
Here we go with the happy horse sh!t MSNBC headlines..."it would be too costly" and "people would be violated if they had to show ID or be forced to go thru illegal search ans seizure".
Kind of like an OVI check point, where AMERICAN CITIZENS ARE FORCED TO SHOW PAPERS AND BOW DOWN TO THE POLICE AND ALLOW THEM TO SEARCH THEIR PERSON AND ATUOMOBILE, but it would be wrong to ask a car load of illegals to present some Identification?
What in the fuch is wrong with you people?
I go to the bank...I have to show an ID, if I use my credit card, I have to show my ID, if I get pulled over for a moving violation or get nailed by some revenue enhancing razor back, I have to show my ID.
But in the minds of liberals, it is wrong to ask anyone for an ID that might be an illegal?????????
Dishwashers/fruit pickers/Baco Pickers are just a small sample of jobs taken by illegals, but so are SKILL TRADES/TRUCK DRIVERS/LANDSCAPERS/PAINTERS...
I used to be in home building, great gig, solid money, good benefits, 401k, now you can't find a decent paying construction job because the few small companies that are fortunate to find jobs, would rather pay low wages with no benefits.
I would rather spend the money getting them out and keeping them out, rather than paying for them to suck the american t!t dry.

Health Care...
You claim it is just a pill to swallow and it is a step in the right direction.
Raising premiums is a good thing?
Creating a tax is a good thing?
For who?
The insurance companies?




http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

 
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bengalbear
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Re: *

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July 9 2012, 3:49 PM 

Instead of fretting about this stuff we need to be a little practical now - If you haven't already done so prepare yourselves for another recession and it will be worldwide. Thanks to our dysfunctional Congress the possiblilty of the fiscal cliff situation increases day by day. If that happens look for gdp to go negative quickly and basically an instant recession. These companies know what's going on - the # 1 reason they are not hiring is lack of demand - it's that simple. You can't legislate demand in Congress and more QE might not be enough to do the trick.

In short - button your chinstrap - it's gonna get ugly the 2nd half.


    
This message has been edited by bengalbear from IP address 65.27.233.7 on Jul 9, 2012 4:08 PM


 
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bronco
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Re: *

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July 10 2012, 9:18 AM 

Murf, the Democrats controlled Congress for about 2 years. The Stimulus, depsite waht you think, did plug the hole. Look at the jobs reports. We were hemmoraging jobs to the tune of hundreds of thousands a month (no joke). The Stimulus kicked in and now we have had 27 months of job growth. You can cry to mommy all you want, but it worked. Barry was stupid in that he thought it would bring unemployment levels further than it did. Then again, there were a lot of voices that said the Stimulus needed to be bigger (it did).

Murf, sometimes you dont want to look at history. The Republicans have used the filibuster more than 3 times more than any Congress IN THE HISTORY OF OUR COUNTRY. That is a fact. Its not twisting words. That is 100% fact. If you dont call that obstructionism, then you sir, are an idiot.

The only reason I "bash" the evangelical Christians is because they always are trying to pretend like they are the "best" religion in the USA or "the most important". Funny, I dont see the American Muslims trying to put a copy of the Koran in a Court house. We have Freedom of Religion in this country. They are all equal. None more important than teh other. Once the evangelicals grasp that idea, we can all move on.

So you arepm record as saying you will support rounding up all illegals and depoting them, no matter what the cost.
Got it. You can have your opinion, I support that right. Now we know.

There are no good answers in health care Murf. The reaon is that all choices affect people's rights and bank accounts. However, even your previous posts about your son indicate a frustration with the current system. Changes had to be made. It will improve over time. Raising premiums is never a "good thing", but sometimes there is a sacrifice that needs to be made when you are trying to tame a monster like health care.


"Insert witty quotation here"

 
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Homey
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Re: *

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July 10 2012, 9:56 AM 

The only reason I "bash" the evangelical Christians is because they always are trying to pretend like they are the "best" religion in the USA or "the most important".
-What religion does not think this? Even Athiests believe their belief system is the "best"


Funny, I dont see the American Muslims trying to put a copy of the Koran in a Court house. We have Freedom of Religion in this country.
-Guess you forgot about that Pennsylvania judge who overruled constitution with Shariah law.


Bronco, you want to put some kind of wager on Obamas gun plans?

 
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bengalbear
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Re: *

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July 10 2012, 10:05 AM 

"I would rather spend the money getting them out and keeping them out, rather than paying for them to suck the american t!t dry. "

In order to clear up the illegals you have to address why they are here in the first place - to do the $hit jobs for less than minimum wage that no one else wants. You have to go after the people who hire them in the first place - obviously a tough job - more regulations - that dreaded word? The illegals are tickled to death to come here to work and get a lot more than they got elsewhere in their own country. Also one of the perks they get - free emergency room care. Obviously this is a monster problem and how to get at it is anyone's guess. It might be a political football already.

 
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(Login broncobux)
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Re: *

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July 10 2012, 10:24 AM 

It should be noted that that Pennsylvania decision was decided by a white Lutheran Judge (who was also an Iraq War Veteran).
Also, the awful and violent "assault" consisted of the Defendant grabbed the guy's sign and his fake beard. LOL. He was not injured. He was not even scratched.

Was it wrong that this small-time judge threw the case out and chastized the Plaintiff? Absolutely. The guy has a Freedom of Speech right like the rest of us.

Do I think its an indictment of the legal system or that all courts are now accepeting Sharia Law over the Constitution based on what one decision on a minor "crime" that a judge in a Pennsylvania town decidded? (Bear in mind that this judge is one level higher than traffic court).

Certainly not. That would be moronic.




"Insert witty quotation here"

 
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Homey
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Re: *

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July 10 2012, 3:06 PM 

Bronco, you want to put some kind of wager on Obamas gun plans?

chirp chirp

 
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(Login broncobux)
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Re: *

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July 10 2012, 3:09 PM 

This again, eh?

Ok, lets do the 4 year bet.

On January 1, 2017, I will still own my guns (Marlin and Glock) and I will still be able to shoot them at the gun range here in Vegas.
Sig for a month? 6 months? A year?

I should have bet you in 2008.



"Insert witty quotation here"

 
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Homer
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Re: *

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July 11 2012, 5:30 PM 

extend it through last day in office, and no obstruction to purchasing guns as well. 1 months, your avatar will be

[linked image]


 
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Hook
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Re: *

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July 10 2012, 3:12 PM 

Wow, that Pennsylvania case again?

The lies within that story are almost Murfish in their number and in their outlandishment.

The judge was not a Muslim. Unlike most chickenhawk neocons, he was a decorated combat veteran.

There was no reference to Sharia Law in the ruling.

The charge was assault filed by the plaintiff, because the investigating police found absolutely zip in the way of physical harm attempted or physical harm achieved. The police didn't make an assault charge because they had no probable cause to file such a charge. The judge was no more of a Muslim conspiratist than the local police department.

It does seem to me the joker could have made a claim of criminal damaging. Why he didn't is frankly a curiosity. He must be one more victim wannabe that wanted to conjure up a dramatic case of victimhood.

But judges can only rule on the charges brought before them. The plaintiff had no evidence of assault and there was no admission of assault (Homey, when you first posted this story, I think this "admission" was one more Drudge type report that was a total lie)

The case wasn't dismissed because of a Muslim conspiracy. It was American Justice at work. Once again, the phony outrage is a defacto attack on American institutions.

 
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murf
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Re: *

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July 10 2012, 3:52 PM 

You can stop the illegals by putting the employers of illegals in prison and imposing massive fines on them or strip them of their license.
Yes, some work in the low wage fields that nobody wants to work, but many are taking skilled labor jobs away from legal citizens.
That is just the tip of the iceberg





http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

 
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bengalbear
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Re: *

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July 10 2012, 5:45 PM 

There has to be a way to track down and find the offending companies - I suspect the workers are paid cash at the end of each day - cash - not check. The only way is word of mouth but that is iffy.

 
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(Login broncobux)
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Re: *

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July 10 2012, 6:05 PM 

If you try to track people too closely, the libertarian Republicans will unleash their mighty roar.

Tread lightly and stay thirsty, my friends.

"Insert witty quotation here"

 
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Synonymous Bengal
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Re: *

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July 10 2012, 7:38 PM 

Yes, some work in the low wage fields that nobody wants to work, but many are taking skilled labor jobs away from legal citizens. ~ murf

yea...those skilled labor jobs started to become more and more Union. And what happens when Unions get on property...productivity slows and wages increase. Unions are what drove jobs overseas...not greedy executives. Executives are tasked with keeping the company in the black, viable, and attractive to investors.

I cant say I am all for illegals - but I am more against Unions.

 
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murf
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Re: *

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July 11 2012, 2:43 PM 

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/obamacare-now-estimated-cost-26-trillion-first-decade_648413.html


At some point even the most loyal Mickey lover has to question this...

http://murf-seriously.blogspot.com/

 
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