to Big White Country. You look at the NC Family beginning with the Program, Matt D., Uncle Drunkle, Buzz Peterson. It seems like The North Carolina, Big White Connection is a marriage made in Hell.
Hotty Toddy !!!!
Mighty Rebels.....87 Mighty Rebels 86
The Big White.....71 The Big White 73
Oh, I wish I was in the land of Cotton, Ole times their are not forgotten look away, look away, look away, DixieLand.
Interesting thread JC. I've always thought that no coach in America is doing less with more talent than Roy Williams at Kansas. Coach 'Doh is proving to be quite inept, I'm sorry, but the lack of talent at UNC isn't so bad that they should be losing by 30 night in and night out. What a load of crap. Buzz-the jury is still out on but early returns are that he's had problems getting his team to win the close ones. Eddie Fogler, enough said. My point is, Dean Smith was a great coach, in the top 3 of all time in college basketball (IMO along with John Wooden and Bob Knight). But all of these assistants and the "family" is a load of garbage and is overplayed by the media.
No offense Deano, just my take. Obviously I'm biased as I'm a loyal UNC hater (just the ACC in general in fact). But IMO this supposed great collection minds if WAY overrated.
First of all, as Deano pointed out, we do NOT
count Jerry Green as part of the family. Most
of my friends in Chapel Hill have never even heard
of him.
As far as "the finally" goes, I may be biased, but
I have to disagree. If Roy Williams is so over-rated
why does everyone want him? I don't think the talent
level has been that high at Kansas. How many great
Kansas players can you name? Can you imagine how
hard it is to get urban kids to go to Lawrence?
As far as the other coaches, Fogler burned out but
was not a terrible coach. Then there is Larry Brown
and George Karl (my choice after Williams said no).
The jury is still out on Doherty and Buzz. It is WAY
too early to pass judgement. Dean and coach K both
struggled for 3 years before doing anything.
Guthridge killed us. Jason Williams wanted to go to
Carolina. Doherty's recruting class next year is ranked number 2. Unfortunately, Duke's is number 1.
As a side question, I can think of three college BB
families, with the patriarchs being Dean, Pitino,
and Knight (I'm including K under Knight's family,
though he is obviously starting his own branch.)
Any other college BB families? What about football?
Us Tar Heels don't know much about that sport.
No talent at Kansas? Try Paul Pierce, Jaques Vaughn (keep in mind college), Raef Lafrentz, Scott Pollard, etc. He's had more than his share of McD's AA and has been to a grand total of ONE Final Four in the last 10 years. He's consistently underacheived, and only a SHEEP wouldn't see that. How many #1 seeds has he had that haven't gone past the 16 (or not even made it like '98)? And exactly who is going after Roy Williams, all I know of is UNC.
I agree that Brown and Karl are great coaches, but I'm talking college, and the last 10 years at that. 'Doh has been absolutely terrible at UNC, but the UNC sheep eat it up because they know no better. Losing to Hampton, Davidson, and nearly to Binghamton, hahahahahahahhaha.
Mind you I am partial, but Jim Boeheim has a pretty good coaching "family", of which Rick Pitino is included. I believe at last count seven DI coaches either played or coached under JB. There are plenty of trees out there, the media just focuses on UNC and Duke because they are in love with them. I'm sure Denny Crum developed a good family, but you'll never hear about that.
You ever think the media might be in love with UNC and Duke because they have been at the top of the best basketball conference on the planet year in year out? Maybe you dont remember the old pepsi challenge back when David Thompson played at NC state? That was the biggest thing going back before the day of the NCAA tournament. Of course that goes back to tradition which really means nothing in the world today.
I don't know if I'd consider Brown and Karl "great coaches" but they are above average NBA coaches. Keep in mind they only have one trip to the NBA Finals each.
I'll stick by my stance that the UNC coaching fraternity is overrated. Hell the Coach K one is also, that Tommy Amaker, he really did a bang up job with all of his talent at Seton Hall.
I agree with VOLMAN........BUZZ owns NO NECK'S a$$...........stick that in your redneck pipe and smoke it JC.....
I used to kinda enjoy your posts.........UNTIL your idiotic post regarding your enjoyment and thrill over RON SLAY'S season-ending injury........YOU are one bonafide pathetic iindividual JC.......YOU need a life.......geeeze.......
I stick by my assessment of Williams. The players
you mentioned were good players, but over the
years, compare his talent to other programs. (Look at the NBA, not many great former Kansas players). He has
repeatedly turned down NBA jobs. His first few years
at Kansas, he spurned other college jobs as well until it became known that he would only leave Kansas for
Carolina. Believe me, if he quit tomorrow, schools
would line up for his services. I bet a bunch of them
would be willing to pull a "Tampa Bay" and offer him
the job before they fired their current coach. Plus,
he runs a clean program and his players graduate, a
Carolina tradition.
My only gripe with Williams is the way he handled
the Carolina offer. He ACCEPTED the job in Chapel
Hill; it was a done deal. He then changed his mind
when he flew back to Lawrence. That was bush league.
Are you a Syracuse fan? Do you consider Boeheim
overrated? After all, he's had way more talent than
most coaches and never won a championship.
On a side note, even though I'm arguing from this
position, I think the "talent" question is a little
misleading. After all, isn't getting good players
to come to your school an important part of coaching?
Should we penalize coaches because they're better
recuiters than bench strategists?
Concerning Kansas and Roy Williams, their most glaring example of underachievement was in '97(?), the year that Arizona caught fire and won it all. That squad was the most talented Kansas team I've ever seen, and they were ranked #1 almost the entire regular season.
You have to tip your hat to Arizona, though. They beat three #1 seeds in a row to win the NC. They beat Kansas, then my Heels, then Kentucky in the championship game. Zona was en fuego.
I thought Roy Williams made three FF appearances in the 90's, but I may be wrong. I'm not the closest observer of Jayhawks b-ball. AND, I'm not exactly heartbroken that Roy didn't come back to Carolina. I just wish that the owner of the Bucks would have permitted Karl to speak to UNC about the position. His new contract has an "out clause", though.
Eddie Fogler was a good coach, but he got burned out a few years ago. When you lose your passion for the game, you need to step down. He probably stayed on a year or two too long,
Is the Carolina coaching fraternity overrated? Who knows? Most of their peers will say they aren't. But you, as an ABC'er, are going to see things differently, which is understandable considering the media coverage of Carolina and the "family tree".
Re Matt and Buzz, it's way too early in their careers to say if they're good coaches or not. Matt will need to win next year with his own players, no doubt about it. I love Coach Gut, but he really left the cupboard bare at Carolina. And the Jason Parker snafu hurt, too. Few Tar Heel fans expect a Final Four next year, because the starters will all be freshmen and sophomores. But Matt needs to win most of his games, and be competitive in the ACC.
Re Jim Boeheim, I think it's safe to say that he and his Orangemen are the Buffalo Bills of college b-ball. They come up "99" every time. A national championship will never be hung at the Carrier Dome as long as Boeheim is HC. And I agree with Billy Tubbs concerning that zone y'all play. Somebody always seems to be lost or asleep.
I think my smack attack last night misled you. Billy Tubbs did not utter his famous 2-1-2 line in reference to Syracuse. He used that one liner to describe his 1979 Lamar teams defensive allignment prior to playing Magic's Michigan State team in the 1979 NCAA Tourney at Murphey Center in Murfreesboro.
I've never thought JB is the walking god that so many Syracuse sheep do. IMO he had as much talent as anyone from the mid 80s to early 90s and all he could manage was one title game appearance in '87. Once he was busted an placed on probation it killed his recruiting and Syracuse hasn't had talent even close to the previously mentioned era, though his recruiting efforts have improved drastically in the last couple years. I won't say Syracuse will never win a NC with Boeheim as the coach but let's just say I'm not holding my breath. I still think he's a great coach, but unless he wins the big one he'll always have something missing on his resume.
Re the 2-3, believe me I'm not that big a fan of it. Every single year the same thing happens, JB falls in love with his zone and refuses to switch out when teams figure it out. It is a VERY good defense, but it's like a pitcher that only has a great fastball, eventually hitters will catch up unless you have a curve, change, or some other pitch to mix it up. But rest assured that if a coach around America wants to pick up a pointer or two on zone defense there are two coaches that top that list, John Chaney at Temple and Boeheim.
Obviously we disagree about Roy Williams at Kansas. IMO he's had great talent (as much as anyone around), just count up the McDs AA he's had in the last 10 years. When you talk about talented college players they don't always translate into great NBA stars. Jaques Vaughn is a perfect example, he was a stud in college but is an average NBAer. His teams have been loaded, and time after time they are upset, often before even reaching the Sweet 16.
You Carolina fans are fun to discuss hoops with. It's so unusual for UNC sheep to hear their team (and let's not forget the famous family) criticized that they often don't know how to react. FWIW, Duke fans are the same way, though judging by the last couple years it's real hard to find something bad to say about the Dookies.
I'll be the first to admit that I'm biased and see
the world through Carolina blue glasses. Funny
thing about Tar Heel fans, we are VERY critical
of our coaches and players - sometimes overly
critical. Heck, we even gave Smith a hard time
until he won his second championship in 93. But if
an outsider criticizes us, we circle the wagons
and start throwing out statistics (25 consecutive
tourny appearances, etc.). We protect our own. We're
getting our comeuppance this year. I can't turn on
the TV without hearing a Carolina joke. Jees, one bad
year in thirty and they jump all over you.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on Williams.
But you have to give me this; his coaching performance
in 91, when he beat Dean in the Final Four before
losing to Duke in the finals, was awesome.
I have to give you one little tease. I was at Carolina
in 1987 (or 88?) when Syracuse was ranked number 1,
we were missing two starters (one was JR Reid) and
Pete Chilcutt led us to victory. I still vividly
remember the aftermath of that game.
I'm glad you don't take any of my posts personally, I rarely (can't say never) intend them to be that way, and this is such a case. Truth is I respect the hell out of the UNC program and the reason so many (myself included) hate them is because of the fact that they do win (same way with Duke). I still don't think it's as cut and dry that 'Doh will bring the Heels back to the level that they are accustomed to, but time will tell. As for the '91 Kansas squad, you are right, that was a great coaching performance, as was his '93 squad, his last to make a Final Four. But since then I don't think any program has underacheived as much as KU, JMO.
BTW, the game you refer to was in '88, and SU choked away a late lead and lost in OT. It was before my time but I've seen the game on ESPN Classic and it was a great game. Of course, SU fans will remind you that in the '87 tourney the 2 seeded Orangemen KOed the 1 seed Heels in the regional final on the way to the Final Four.
Current Topic - NORTH CAROLINA KARMA FINDS ITS WAY
