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Black Boxes?

September 20 2005 at 10:41 PM
James Dean  (no login)
from IP address 217.40.117.17

 
Black boxes in cars to help police discover the causes of accidents are being considered by ministers, it was announced yesterday.
They are also thinking of introducing financial incentives for those willing to install devices that keep vehicles within the speed limit.
The proposals, regarded by ministers as being at an embryonic stage, are based on a report produced by the Motorists' Forum at the request of Alistair Darling, the Transport Secretary.
They formed part of a wide-ranging package unveiled by Stephen Ladyman, the roads minister, who gave it a cautious endorsement.
Five years ago, the Government set a target of achieving a 40 per cent cut in road casualties by 2010.
Describing Britain's roads as among the safest in the world, Mr Ladyman said the Government would be "aggressive" in trying to further reduce fatalities.
Whitehall believes it can build on technology which is already in use. Many cars have computers providing information to garages about how they have been driven.
Norwich Union has offered motorists pay-as-you-drive insurance based on data collected by a black box it installs in the car.
Similar technology is being used on a far wider scale in the United Arab Emirates, which plans to install black boxes in 700,000 official cars.
These tell the driver when the speed limit is being broken. If a warning is ignored, it tips off the nearest police patrol car by text message and alerts a control centre, which issues a speeding ticket.
Such a draconian approach is unlikely, given ministers' reluctance to antagonise motorists or provoke accusations of Big Brother tactics.
The Motorists' Forum, which called for the introduction of the black boxes, said real-time monitoring of the data should not be allowed.
Black boxes would be used to help police understand why an accident happened by providing information on how the car was driven in the moments before a collision.
Dr Ladyman said extensive consultation would be needed before legislation gave police access to these data.
Technology to prevent cars exceeding the speed limit has been developed by researchers at Leeds University.
Companies such as Siemens believe "intelligent speed adaptation technology" could appeal to motorists with several points on their licence who want to avoid a ban.
It is based on marrying satellite navigation technology and speed limiters commonly fitted to lorries and coaches.
With the Government keen to encourage rather than coerce motorists, one option would be for drivers to be given an incentive to buy safer cars through the tax or - if it is introduced - road-pricing system. Incentives are already in place for fuel-efficient vehicles.
Even without government intervention, ministers hope the insurance industry would provide incentives for drivers willing to buy safer cars.
The Motorists' Forum report also urged the Government to review speed limits making sure that they were realistic for the road in question. It said more signs should be erected making clear what the limit was.
The forum also called for an increase in police traffic patrols with speed cameras being used as a last resort.
Daily Telegraph 20 September

 
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bogush
(Login bogush)
Forum Owner
84.68.196.89

Errrrrrrrrrmmmmmmmmmmmmm

September 20 2005, 11:37 PM 

Motorists Forum?

Isn't that the one run by anti-car (he can drive, honest, he just prefers not to!) "Prof" Begg?

 

Speed limiters on trucks?

Didn't the HGV driver fatality rate jump up when they introduced them?!

 

Speed limiters in general?

Hasn't Belgium banned cruise control (a similar idea) because it is dangerous?!

 

And as for that test run by Prof Carsten at Leeds (Doctorate in History, hasn't he?).

Didn't I heard rumours that the commercial partner pulled out because it would never work?

And why did it take ages for them to release the results of the first phase of the tests?

And then they turned out to be:

Well, the black boxes cut speed by x mph.

And we know that for every mph reduction in speed you cut fatalities by y% (according to some very dodgy "research").

So the black boxes have saved z lives in theory.

But we aren't going to tell you what actually happened.

Or have I got hold of the wrong end of the stick?

 


 
 
bogush
(Login bogush)
Forum Owner
84.68.196.89

Errrrrrrrrrmmmmmmmmm

September 20 2005, 11:40 PM 

See also:

More Black Boxes

 

Hint:

It helps your readers if you keep things on one topic on one thread.

 

 


 
 
Andy
(no login)
81.103.219.27

Re: Black Boxes?

September 20 2005, 11:44 PM 

Isn't that 'professor' David begg the same chap who has an interest in a bus company or summat? Who would have thought it?

 
 
bogush
(Login bogush)
Forum Owner
84.68.196.89

Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrmmmmmmmmmmmmm

September 20 2005, 11:50 PM 

I could have sworn the first few times I browsed the website of his institute of transport, or whatever it is, the sponsors were headed by FirstBus.

For some reason they no longer list their sponsor.

 

And Transport2000 is rumoured to be funded by the mostly privately owned for profit "public" transport companies.

 

And Brake has received charitable donations from the government.

IE  Out of our motoring tax money!

 

 


 
 
Anonymous
(no login)
62.254.0.48

Re: Black Boxes?

September 22 2005, 1:18 PM 

Money which reduces fatalities is money well spent.

 
 
bogush
(Login bogush)
Forum Owner
84.68.196.89

Errrrrrrrrrmmmmmmmmmmmmm

September 22 2005, 8:29 PM 

And, as the money spent has actually first checked, and then reversed, the falling fatality trend:

It is money clearly badly very spent.

 


 
 
Anonymous
(no login)
62.254.0.48

Re: Black Boxes?

September 22 2005, 9:46 PM 

Were that the case then that would be true - A hypothetical point though.

 
 
bogush
(Login bogush)
Forum Owner
84.68.196.89

Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrmmmmmmmmmmm

September 23 2005, 12:22 AM 

Just because you aren't aware of the facts

(Or can't face up to them)

Doesn't alter the fact that they are facts.

 


 
 
Anonymous
(no login)
62.254.0.48

Re: Black Boxes?

September 23 2005, 9:06 AM 

Do you mean facts like:

Cars purify the air.

Higher speeds means greater safety

Speed cameras kill

More guns means fewer shootings

I was left by the fairies at the bottom of the garden.

 
 
bogush
(Login bogush)
Forum Owner
84.68.196.89

Errrrrrrrrrrmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

September 23 2005, 10:02 PM 

Do you mean facts like:

Cars purify the air.

Whilst a car running in, say, pure Antarctic air might produce axhust less clean than the air it is taking in:

In typical cities, with their air typically heavily polluted by tram and train powering power stations, train and bus exhausts, plus anti car protesters setting off to their latest anti-road action in clapped out 2CVs, VW Dormobiles and the like, the modern car's exhaust will actually clean up the crap it takes in, and puts back less than it took out.

Therefore, quite clearly, cars purify the air.



Higher speeds means greater safety

You really must learn to read (perhaps Mummy might help?).

There is an optimum speed to set the limit at for any road for optimum conditions.

For the majority of drivers travelling faster than this speed increases danger.

But travelling slower is equally dangerous.

Pay attention:

Forcing drivers to adhere to a limit lower than the optimum speed increases danger.

Increasing a too low limit to the optimum speed limit increases safety.

Note that, left to their own devices, nearly all drivers will drive at or within a few miles per hour below the optimum speed for the road, adjusted for the conditions.

And the best drivers (eg Police Class 1, etc) will drive a little above that optimum speed.

Which is why speed limits need to be policed with discretion.

The really dangerous drivers will typically drive well above,

And well below the optimum speed.

I've lost count of how many times I've explained this.

Please try and remember it this time.



Speed cameras kill

Clearly, given the above, if the cameras are policing a too low limit.

And enforcing compliance with it:

They will increase the danger, accidents and fatalities.

Further, they add a distraction to, if the hype is to be believed, accident black spots.

Or divert drivers onto less suitable roads.

Making them even more dangerous.

Which is why there are around 5,000 extra deaths between the extrapolation of the pre sCamera fatality trend.

And the actual trend since they were introduced.

Is this too complicated for you to follow?



More guns means fewer shootings

More guns for the law, abiding, yes.

All things being equal.

Of course, you have never been able to handle the concept that different societies have different cultures, and different levels of violence, including using guns.

But, for example, a century ago gun ownership was commonplace in the UK.

Violent crime rare.

As ownership by the law abiding citizen has declined, use by the criminal has increased.

Of course, you like to bring up the US.

The US is a very violent society (check out the historic non firearms homicide rates).

But, for example, what we think of as the gun capitals of the US have actually had severe restrictions on citizens owning firearms for a century.

In comparison, areas where ownership by the law abiding citizen is widespread, or even compulsory, all crime, not just firearms crime is very low.

To put the cultural aspect in perspective:

Japanese immigrants to the US have firearms crime rates similar to those in Japan (where there are severe restrictions on firearms ownership) and not of the areas in which they reside.

So, clearly, apparent discrepancies to the rule more legally owned guns - less crime are down to cultural differences, not firearms ownership.



I was left by the fairies at the bottom of the garden.

I can well believe that.

Either that, or you are a blinkered, sanctimonious, opinionated, ignorant, brainwashed,  ill informed, closed minded, hysterically emotional, shroud-waving, grauniad-reading, muesli-crunching, lentil-munching, namby-pamby, arty-farty, right-on, sandal-knitting, trendy-lefty, nanny state, politicall-correct, do-gooding, tree-hugging, touchy-feely, bleeding-heart, contol freak, pinky-greeny, woolly-"liberal", neo-Lab environ-Mentalist.

 


 
 
Anonymous
(no login)
62.254.0.48

Re: Black Boxes?

September 25 2005, 11:09 PM 

Bogush if you want to be taken seriously - please first answer the question - what are your views on the drink-drive limits?

Thank you in anticipation.

 
 
bogush
(Login bogush)
Forum Owner
84.66.194.3

Errrrrrrrrrrmmmmmmmmmm

September 25 2005, 11:29 PM 

See here:

Hypocrites Ahoy!

 


 
 
Rockall
(no login)
213.152.230.220

Max Headroom

September 26 2005, 4:42 PM 

Sound of children singing 'Boys and girls come out to play, the moon doth shine as bright as day.

Come along in children and sit on our special mat. We are going to have news-time, who's got some special news they want to share? Just a minute Kenny… Ariel what are you doing with those bricks? Building a wall? That's very nice dear but its news-time now. Why are you building a wall? Because you don't want to sit next to those thieving Arabs. Now that's not very nice is it? We are all friends in this class, aren't we boys and girls? and we are going to share our special mat. Ariel I want you to shake hands with Mahmoud and say sorry. Oh isn't that nice? Mahmoud has kissed you on both cheeks, and the lips, and now he's picked you up a is giving you a cuddle, Mahmoud put him down now dear, that's right. Ariel, put the bricks away and come and sit down.

"Where were we? Oh yes, Kenny was going to tell us his special news. What is it Kenny? Sports day is going to be in your garden? Well yes it is, that's right. Isn't that nice of Kenny's mummy to let us run races on her lawn? She is going to make us drinks and sandwiches for afterwards. Sorry Jacques what did you say? You don't like her sandwiches? Why not? They taste of newts! That's not a very kind thing to say. What was that Kenny? No, Jacques breath does not smell of garlic. No it doesn't dear, no… not even a little bit.

"Who's this coming in late? George and Tony! What have you boys been doing? You've started a gang? I'm not sure we like gangs in this class do we children? No we don't! What's it called? G8? Who is in charge of this gang? You are Tony… Oh I see, it's George's gang but Tony can pretend to be in charge today. Well it's nice to share things but we really don't like gangs. You remember what happened when you got poor Kofi to pretend to be in charge of your gang last year? You don't remember? Well I do, and I don't think poor Saddam will forget how you threw him out of the sandpit! He wasn't playing nicely? No George he wasn't, but two wrongs don't make a right do they? What? Your daddy says they do? Well your daddy isn't here is he and this is our class and we don't like bullies.

"Osama, come and sit down with the others. What's your news? You're going to break Kenny's train set? That's not very kind at all, why are you going to do that? Because Tony and George are friends with Kenny but they wont play with you. Is this right George? Why wont you play with Osama? Because he knocked your bricks over. Did you Osama? Why was that? Because George's dad tried to get Saddam out of the sandpit? George is friends with Ariel and they won't share the milk and biscuits? I think you are all being very silly. What did you say George? You are going to do what to Osama? We don't use that word here thank-you, no we don't, we say 'bottom' and we don't like kick-donkeys.

"I think we have had enough news. Let's collect the dinne/2002/06/10/sharon-thought.htmlr money. What did you say George? You have collected most of it already, and the G8 gang are going to pay for the poor boys and girls in Africa. Why are they poor?… because you collected the dinner money already. Would the G8 gang turn the heating down for us, its getting a bit stuffy in here? No? Why not George? Because although you recognise the stuffiness as a serious long-term challenge uncertainty remains in our understanding of central heating. George, you sound just like your father; don't do that!


 
 
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