hello, just thought you'd know the answer to this question:
here's my situation:
i bought dumbbells about 2 years ago, i did bicep curls 3 sets for 10 reps every second day. i went from being able to do around 17 lbs to around 28 lbs (not that much i know). now 2 years later I do your pyramid thing, i have to problems. first I can only lift 17 lbs again. why have i regressed? i train my biceps once a week so i don't overtrain, i train harder by using barbell and dumbbell.
that's the first problem, i've regressed when i should of progressed, second problem is this:
i can't do the pyramid thing here's why:
you said to do -
12 reps to failure
10 reps with more weight to failure
8 reps with more weight to failure
6 reps with more weight to failure
my problem is, after the first set my muscles are tired as hell and when i go on set 2, i can't add weight otherwise i can't reach 10 reps.
in a nutshell here are my problems:
1. i want to know why my biceps have gotten weaker
2. i want to know why i can't complete the 4 set pyramid.
this is just me, but when i used to do weights, i'd start off with low reps and high weight, and work down to low weight and high reps. that way i could do as many reps as i wanted, and weight was taken off each stage.
if you train your biceps once a week then they wont get too much neuromuscular conditioning (how hard they contract) maybe you should incorporate an isometrics, or isokinetics program into your workout.
-Jowan-
Don't do pyramids with an isolation exercise. Pyramids are great for compound movements that use a lot of different muscles at the same time like squats, benches, and deadlifts. It's possible to add a lot of weight on each and every set of these exercises.
Curls are an isolation exercise and the biceps are a relatively small muscle. You're not gonna be adding a lot (if any) weight to the bar on each progressive set. Your biceps simply do not have the endurance or strength capacity. The only way that would be possible is if you did NOT take your sets to failure.
Just b/c you are using barbell and dumbells doesn't mean you are working them any harder. Here is what you should do:
Go back to doing what you did before, 3 sets of 10 every other day. I say this b/c it worked for you before. Try to build up to your highest weight again, which shouldn't take long at all.
Once you can comfortably curl your 28 lbs Db's, cut back to working your bi's TWICE a week. When you drop the frequency, INCREASE the volume. In other words, add more sets and exercises. Try this routine:
-2 sets straight DB curls 6-8 reps
-2 sets supinating (w/ a twist) DB curls 6-8 reps
-2 sets seated concentration curls 6-8 reps
Pace is IMPORTANT! Only rest for 30-45 seconds in between sets. You may find that you have decrease the amount of weight to complete the reps. That is fine. Also, use a weight that only allows you to do 6-8 reps. If you can do more than that, add weight.
Once you get used to this, add one more set to each exercise for a total of 3 sets each. Also, feel free to occasionally substitute the first exercise w/ close grip chin-ups (palms toward you) or the last exercise with hammer curls to mix things up a bit.
Follow my guidelines and your bi's will look like baseballs tucked under your sleeves.
12,10,8,6...thats how many times you lift the weight in each set.
When you increase the workload exteremly as you did, the muscles will be exhausted, and you will not be able to lift as much...this is why you pyramid.
Hef: why would you pyramid only for compound exercises? maybe you have a kineseology degree, but there are many bodybuilders that would disagree, and have the muscles to back up their argument, while you have a piece of paper. Who would I listen to? the answer is obvious.
First off...
I don't appreciate your snooty little remarks about "your muscles vs. my piece of paper." If you disagree w/ me, that's fine. If you want to know why I advise what I do, then just ask. You don't have to be a jackass about it.
Now, to answer your question. The reason he shouldn't do pyramids w/ anything other than compound exercises is b/c he'll be wasting his time. Why? B/c he is not a bodybuilder who has spent years building up a foundation w/ heavy workloads. The compound movements will be enough for him to develop strength and mass, yet still have the energy to recover and do other things, like martial arts. You see, Rob, people can only develop at a certain rate. Once someone has done what they need to do to stimulate muscle in a given workout, there is no need to do anymore. In fact, doing more cuts into recovery a lot more and will slow his progress. Eventually as his work capacity increases, he could add some isolation exercises to finish off, but he wouldn't need to pyramid them b/c his muscles should already be spent if he's working hard enough w/ the compound movements. Only elite bodybuilders who have the tolerance (not to mention no other physical endeavors) "need" to pyramid isolation exercises. I'm sorry but I have never heard such sillyness and everyone I know in the field would laugh at such a thing. No wonder why everyone makes fun of bodybuilders.
You may know a lot about what bodybuilders are doing, but I know a LOT MORE about what EVERYONE else in the training world is doing. This kid can only curl 17 lbs right now, and you want him to do pyramids with bicep curls?! He'll never make it, and if he did, he wouldn't get any better results than he would have if he did less.
I gave you a lot of props on this forum Rob, b/c I know what it takes for a person to do bodybuilding...it isn't easy. But, understand this, a lot of the guys you refer to have been doing nothing but lifting damn weights and taking supplements for years and years. Of course they do workouts that would floor the average person or athlete who has other qualities they need to develop.
I disagreed with your STUPID statement a while ago when u said that it takes 16 sets to develop a muscle. BULL$HIT!!!! I didn't say anything though, b/c I respected your point of view, even though it's flat out wrong. TONS of people throughout history have built heaps of muscle on 5x5's, 1x20 squats or deads, 10x10 (german volume training), 6x4...I could go on and on and on. Ever hear of Reg Park? I'm sure you have, he was Schwartzenegger's idol. He used a 5x5 method. I do agree, however, that to fully potentiate your muscles you DO need more volume like u stated. It's not necessary though for young JKD guys to become obsessed w/ getting the perfect horseshoe tricep or separation between upper and lower pec fibers.
Do you think NFL players pyramid with isolation exercises? Hell, do you even think they DO isolation exercises? Sorry to say, but the majority (if not all) do not. How about guys in the WWE...they're pretty big. Herscel Walker became one of the greatest athletes in the NFL by doing bodyweight exercises! The only people in the world doing pyramids with isolation exercises are steroid enhanced bodybuilders and the cronies who listen to them!
Do a search for these people: Charles Poliquin, Tudor Bompa, Pavel Tsatsouline, Charles Staley, William Kraemer, Ian King, or Fred Hatfield. These are some of the biggest names in the Strength and Conditioning industry. Read their points of view and then come talk to me. Or, go to the MMA strength and condition forum and talk to the people there. There are very successful coaches on there as well as fighters...maybe you can learn something other than bodybuilding.
One last thing...I may not be as big as you, but I can bench twice my bodyweight and squat and deadlift 3 times my bodyweight. Only 6% bodyfat, so I'm not a "chubby" powerlifter (since you think that powerlifters r in such horrible condition). Yes, yes, you are bigger than me...but bigger doesn't always mean better, so drop the superiority complex.
12,10,8,6...thats how many times you lift the weight in each set.
When you increase the workload exteremly as you did, the muscles will be exhausted, and you will not be able to lift as much...this is why you pyramid. "
I'm not getting sets and reps confused. you told me to do 4 sets like this:
SET 1: 12 reps
SET 2: 10 reps increase weight
SET 3: 8 reps increase weight
SET 4: 6 reps increase weight
that is 4 sets. count them.
And I'm going back to the old way of doing it like Hef said, as by using your program I've regressed. I know you were trying to help me which I appreciate though.
Im sure you are very educated in the physcial fitness field or whatever you want to call it. I have simply stated what has worked for me.....and it has worked damn good. If you look at my notebook thread you will see the beginners program, on which I built my foundation. I assumed this kid was somewhat experienced with weightlifting, so I told him how to get out of a rut.....and you would know that principles such as pyramiding and descending sets can help you bust out of a growth plateau.
Ive also said plenty of times that not every BODY is the same. People's bodies react differently to workload. What I have said here is what works for me.
Why would he get so tired out pyramiding the weight for biceps? If his max biceps curl is with 17 lb bells, I would suggest starting at 8 or 10 lbs for 12 reps, then 10 or 12 lbs for 10 reps, followed by 15 bls for 8 reps, then maybe 20 lbs for 6 reps. This is progressive resistance, and it will most likely break him out of his rut. increasing the weight and keeping the reps high would certainly tire him out. I didnt tell him to do that though.
And if you are training a bodypart only once per week, 8 or 12 sets is not enough to really stimulate the most muscle growth. If you are a beginner building a foundation, each bodypart twice weekly and 12 sets is fine.
BTW...I wasnt trying to be a smart ass or anything like that. Just pointing out that the programs I have listed here are very similar to the ones used by people who compete at 240-260 lbs with ZERO % bodyfat. Guess those programs dont work afterall huh?
I just looked at my notebook thread, and I do suggest 16 sets each muscle group twice weekly. I went in and out of doing 12 sets and 16 sets twice weekly.
What I found is that by doing the 16 sets, you can stimulate growth to all areas of the muscle....yes this means that I was and still am training like a bodybuilder. If you look at that program, it is designed to work all areas of all muscles, stimulating total development. Personally, when I was doing 3 exercises for chest, my upper chest really lagged and looked retarded, so I added exercises...problem solved.
16 sets for a muscle group was considered low-medium volume training by Arnold Schwarzenegger. Call me crazy, but I take the advice of the most looked upto man in the bodybuilding community and modify it where needed to fit the needs of my body.
Without getting all scientific, if your goal is to get bigger...do what the biggest guys are doing...atleast 2/3 of the way. Thats what I did and it worked for me.
I agree that Arnold is by far the most looked up Body Builder, and I am far from an expert on any of this, but it seems to me that to train 16 sets per body part, twice a week, some form of proformance enhancing drug may be required for the long haul. Arnold was on juice, and it would make sense that he would see this as required sets...because he could do it. However, would he/could he do this volume of training without the juice?
You are right sean......arnold sure as hell was on juice. Cant really discredit him for that though...when he was doing it, steriods were legal in the united states.
Arnold would actually train this volume 3 times per week per bodypart, and yes, I think you probably do need some kind of cheating enhancement to handle that kind of workload. Thats why I suggest doing it only twice, to stimulate the most growth possible without overtraining. thats what I did, and I could handle it, even as a beginner.
I dont agree with everything that someone says or preaches just because they have accomplished alot. I dont think arnold is right in everythign he says, and Im sure there are some things I would not agree with BL on as well.
I have posted my experiences and what has worked for me. It may or may not work for other people, as I have said many times. Maybe I have an extraordinary drive that allows me to handle that kind of workload.
I do think people here can learn from my posts. Try it out, and modify it to meet your neads. I have listed a plan that will develop the body totally....every part of every muscle, but the volume, and other principles may or may not work.
I think its good advice for someone to build on, and they can take it or leave it.
This message has been edited by StrongLikeBull on Jul 22, 2003 11:22 AM
QBALL: I think you probably were using too much weight. To start pyramiding, You would have to drop the weight significantly. Im not sure if I told you that or not.
Sorry the program didnt work for you. Other people have told me they have been getting great results using it. Thats just it...everyone is different, and it might not work for everyone who follows it.
QBALL, if you want, I would gladly desing a much lower training volume program for you to try out. I will give you the exercises needed to completely develop the muscle with as little sets as possible, according to my experiences. Let me know.
I am going to post a new beginners Low Volume training program to my training notebook thread. The split will call for less sets, split into two days per week per body part with different exercises each day, developing all areas of each muscle.
I have been doing martial arts since 1962, Jeet Kune Do since 1976. During that time I competed and won many powerlifting and bench press contests while still competing at a high level in Kickboxing, Baseball, Tennis and other sports.
I am a Certified Personal Trainer, Martial Arts Conditioning Specialist and Sports Conditioning Specialist.
Here is my take for what it is worth.
#1. Pyramiding goes up and down, usuall with weight and reps.
Like this:
Set One 75 lbs 12 reps
Set Two 95 lbs 10 reps
Set Three 110 lbs 8 reps
Set Four 65 lbs 20 reps
Of course the weight varies according to your ability.
If you cannot pyramid, perhaps you are not resting enough between sets, or maybe your nutrition is not what it should be for intense training.
Also, for whatever it is worth, I personall do a lot of cheat sets when I curl. But I am not a bodybuilder. I am a fighter and an athlete. I train to add synergism and power to my punch, my swing, my stroke as I use them in the ring, on the mat or on the field.
For the most part, I perform my lifts how I want to perform when I compete. I also do some isolation sets to really attack the tendons and ligaments especially for grappling and counter submission training.
William E. Holland II
www.tactixtrainingcenter.com
www.ijkda.com
www.forumco.com/tactixtalk
This message has been edited by WilliamEHollandII on Aug 16, 2004 12:06 PM
lol well i dont think anyone else bothered to ask but heres one for ya....
How much protein (in grams) do you avg. a day?
If you are training your biceps 3 times aweek you need alot of protein to keep them up with your workout, especially if you are really targeting them!
Do you eat proper? eat the proper carbs? Do you get enough water?
Sometimes its not just the exercises that you have a problem with.
Current Topic - !!!!!!!!!QUESTION ABOUT BICEPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
