I often hear JKDC practioners say concepts is this or concepts is that when in fact there are 3 different types of concepts practioners. The first kind uses OJKD as a bace then adds whatever. The second kind learns all of OJKD but then modifys whatever and adds whatever. The third simply use's directness and may not know any OJKD.
This message has been edited by Bushidocfs on Nov 29, 2003 10:51 PM This message has been edited by Bushidocfs on Nov 28, 2003 10:42 PM
There does seem to be a lot of confused people out there, especially in the JKD world. It seems really simple though. I guess it's when you go looking for a lot of complicated, mystical answers to simple questions that it starts to get confusing.
Is there an argument accompanying this post or simply a series of three statements.
Concepts vs. Original is a bogus argument to begin with. In Jeet Kune Do it is the practitioner's to mediate both the simplicity and directness of the original material with the need to adapt in certain situations.
"Is there an argument accompanying this post or simply a series of three statements."
Three statements most likely. I personally think that OJKD and JKDC are simply JKD and should only be reffered to as the art Bruce Lee created, Jeet Kune Do: The Way of the Intercepting Fist.(no offense to anyone)
I do not wish to start an arguement about OJKD VS JKDC that would be pointless as most people have made up there mind already on the subject. However I just wanted to bring up the fact that all JKDC guys don't practice or believe the same stuff. I am and always will be a OJKD guy as I believe this is the only way to perserve JKD, but I do train and know JKDC guys who I have alot of respect for.
In another recent post somewhere, Dan Inosanto himself states there is no difference between original and concepts. Because in order to do the concepts you have to train and have an understanding for the original. I totally agree cause I do concepts and guess what all the classes in the beginning are about? Yep, you got it! Original! When Dan teaches his JKD classes, he labels it Jun Fan Gung Fu and all your original guys that studied under Bruce all went to Dan to continue their training after Bruce died. So now you have a problem. If Dan was the one that took over and everyone went to him after Bruce died, and Dan is concepts, where the f**k did this original b.s. start from? People that say that concepts has nothing to do with what Bruce intended is totally missing the boat and shows their close-mindedness much like the classical martial artists. Bruce didn't give a sh*t about the way he did things in one point of his evolution otherwise he wouldn't keep changing the agenda so often so why should everyone else make such a fuss? The reason Bruce closed his schools was because some of his students started to practice "original JKD" and he didn't want that. They were just copying him and his agenda. Preserving Bruce's art the way it was done way back in the 60's is just turning it into a classical art which is the very thing Bruce spoke out against. Jeet Kune Do meant freedom. If you practice the exact agenda he did way back then and say he can't add this or take that away you are solidifying the art. A lot of original JKD guys have the famous come back "It is not adding but simplifying". Yes but in order to simplify, you have to have something to simplify from. If there are holes in the original (which there are), they should be filled to make it more complete and well rounded. There are no weapons in original, which is why you have the kali and escrima.....the wing chun element is all centerline and the kali gives you angles which is more options that just the centerline theory. A lot of the original guys are stuck in the centerline approach and that is how a lot of concepts guys were beating them in sparring. They would simply shift and angle off and then go into centerline again. Another thing is the brazillian jujitsu. Original has Gene Labell's jujitsu which is great and works but the original grappling in JKD is incomplete. Only 32 movements at the time of Lee's death. Which is why Larry Hartsell took it further to develop it. BJJ gives JKD more options and helps the JKD man fight in grappling range a hundred times more efficient....ground or standing up. Alan Ground added counters to it, making it more complete even further. Muy Thai adds to the power and devestating tehcniques that JKD already has. Augmenting for instance the thai kick which is much more powerful that the kicks that were used at the time. And guess what? There is a decrease even in concepts! Cause you don't use the whole Filipino, BJJ, or Thai systems. You use what works for you and that is following JKD. JKD is an idea. It's not another style. If in JKD it is meant to say use what works for you, it doesn't mean use what works for you in ONLY the styles he used at that specific moment in time. It meant....ok here are the core arts from which the foundation of the art is based on.....get down the core principles (economy of motion, simplicity, etc...) and now you can go to other arts and see if any of them can fit YOUR way of fighting, not Bruce's way. Anybody who has studied the concepts idea for some time knows that we don't add arts simply for the sake of adding. Any technique that is added is done so with a thought process. It has to fit the core principles and it has to be done with a thought process. If you are trying to be like Bruce and fight like Bruce you are not being you. JKD is self discovery for finding yourself. You are supposed to make the system fit you, not find out how you can fit the system. If you are doing that, then you are doing just another classical martial art. Bruce was in constant evolution. Concepts training is also constantly evolving. Original is solidified. Bruce Lee said that "he welcomed people who liked JKD to study it and IMPROVE on it". Well, lol the only way to do that is if you change it in some way to make it fit you. But God forbid!!! You can't change original cause now the original has become the gospel truth!! Oh No!!!!! Please people, get it through your heads.....there is no difference between the two. One simply is in constant evolution to improve and the other is stagnant. They're the same art. The same training. No difference. Don't get hung up on the Fillipino, Thai boxing, and BJJ additions. There was a reason for it as explained above. If you want to honor Bruce and his art, then honor the whole point of why JKD was created. That being don't be limited to any approach. Even Bruce's. What worked for Bruce might not work for you. You don't add simply to add or decrease any art without first researching the system. JKD is a menu. If your happy with "original" then fine. There's nothing wrong with that. If you want to practice Shaolin kung fu, there is nothing wrong with that. If you want to practice JKD concepts, then you will have to find what works for you and think for yourself. God forbid you use your own brain instead of copying something. Most people don't want to put in the work that makes JKD what it is. There is no one kind of JKD. Everybody's JKD will look a little different because different people are attracted to different parts of JKD more than others. Even among concepts guys like Dan, Larry, and Paul...all their ways are similar cause they all follow the core principles but they are all unique and different cause they all found their own personal expression of JKD. Brandon Lee said "I feel funny saying I practice JKD cause it was my father's own personal expression of the martial arts. So I would feel more comfortable in saying I practice my own interpretation of JKD as anyone who truly practices JKD, does." Preserving JKD in the truest sense means preserving the core principles and not the agenda he had in one fixed moment in time way back when he was in the process of creating it. So say you like original and are stuck on praciticing it the way Bruce did while he was alive. Even in Bruce's lifetime, JKD in 1966 looks different that the JKD in 1969. And that JKD looks different from the JKD in 1973, so when you say you practice original, which one? LOL It's like saying you like James Bond and you want to dress up as him for Halloween. You put on a mask of Sean Connery and then someone else puts on a mask of Roger Moore. Then you say "that isn't James Bond. This is! Preserve the real James Bond! When both are James Bond." They're just James Bond from different time periods. The constant thing that runs through all James Bond are the attributes that make him what he is: A good looking, sharp dressed guy with a gun that is a spy and gets all the chicks. He always has a british accent and black hair. See? This is an example of what I am talking about. Concentrate on what makes James Bond ....James Bond regardless of who is playing him. In the same breath, concentrate on what makes JKD....JKD regardless of who is practicing it. And the only thing that is going to similar in any JKD fighters's way regardless of original and concepts is the core principles and attributes like the wing chun, boxing and fencing arts. And also the simplicity, directness, aliveness, longest weapon to nearest target, interception, etc...you get the idea. If you stay true to those, as for any other arts added or taken away or approaches, the sky's the limit! JKD is more like water cause water constantly flows. It isn't a history book where everything is pretty much written in stone and cannot be changed.
This message has been edited by Lenmaster on Nov 30, 2003 3:14 PM This message has been edited by Lenmaster on Nov 30, 2003 3:12 PM
Did you ever hear of the JKD nucleus and why Dan did'nt want to be a part of it? Now you made me do what I didn't want to do. JKDC teachs OJKD sometimes but then the instructor teaches what he believes should be added making JKDC on step closer to a style a right way of doing things a fixed way. OJKD has holes in it, I disagree. JKD is not the only martial I do, I also do jujitsu concepts.
This message has been edited by Bushidocfs on Nov 30, 2003 8:17 PM This message has been edited by Bushidocfs on Nov 30, 2003 5:15 PM This message has been edited by Bushidocfs on Nov 30, 2003 5:03 PM
Hello Curt, I don't believe we have ever met on here. Yes, the concepts instructor teaches what he believes should be added cause he is customizing the art to him. That's what every person that practices JKD should do. It was made for that reason. By doing so, it doesn't make it a style. Even if you are learning one instructor's particular way, you are going to take from it what works for you, what aspects you like from it, favorite approaches, techniques, and methodologies, etc. Every JKD instructor you take JKD from is going to teach you what he thinks works for him or what way he thinks it should be taught.
JKD has holes in it. I said this for a reason and the reasons are stated in the last post. In essence, every martial art has holes in it. They all have good and bad points. Strengths and weaknesses. No one art has it all. Now I believe Jeet Kune Do is the most well rounded and scientific of all martial arts but it doesn't make it a flawless art. Glad to hear you are also involved with jujitsu. How is that coming along for you?
Jiyasa - Do you really have to yell everytime you get frusterated over something that isn't important? I read a post not so long ago saying you were leaving and I just read your post here, and in two other places recently. So much for you taking off. LOL You can't take off. This board is too addicting as you have found out. And by the way, I agree with you about everyone shouldn't make a fuss over OJKD and JKDC. That's why I wrote that last post. I was basically saying to not make a big deal of it. I was just going into detail on "why" you shouldn't rather than telling people to simply "not".
Ricky - always something philosophical with you. lol We all don't seem to change at all.
Yelling? This is a forum. You TYPE, there is no "yelling". If capitals mean YELLING then by all means I am "yelling". Take note that, I use caps lock for EMPHASIS.
If I don't EMPHASIZE words on this forum, the main point I'm making never seems to go through anyone's brain.
Dan was left in charge according to many JKDC people. The reason they were closed was because what? Dan was teaching OJKD? If thats the truth and bruce wanted them to teach JKDC approach it couldn't wait till he got back? They were simply learning what they were taught all along? People were teaching incorrectly and if so seeing Dan was in charge why did'nt he take care of the situation or was he the problem? The truth is I don't know. I can only go on what I do know and supposedly BL closed all three schools with Dan in charge because people were teaching something BL did'nt like. The answers you will get will depend on the persons spin.
Evolve can mean getting better at what you already do. All we have are 2 arms and 2 legs how many variables are there? JKD is simplcity simpified, JKD was designed for the self defence not for sport. Many things I have learned over the years in grappling and sparring will work in a controlled situation with rules but there a difference between that and self defence against a trained fighter with no rules.
This message has been edited by Bushidocfs on Dec 2, 2003 10:22 PM
I think that adaptation is a better way of describing JKD than evolution. The basic JKD structure is phenomenal in its simplicity and directness. But, the rest of the martial arts world is changing and evolving. The JKD practitioner must be aware of these changes and adapt as necessary. This means that he must be able to fit his tools and tactics to current fighting modalities and assimilate new ones if necessary.
see ....if u look at bruce as a whole person ...
U would understand that ...
He was a perfectionist, stubborn, obsessive, loaded with energy, determined, cocky, opinionated, ambitious, cunning and highly intelligent.
He started as an actor in China and learned fighting because he was a kid who was always in gang fights
So that was a part of him as a person since childhood.
He wanted to become an actor more than anything and even quoted himself that he didnt want to become a Martial arts teacher. He was also a philosopher, an actor, a father, a teacher, a friend, a husband, a waiter, a cha cha dancer, a writer, a director, a choreographer, even played some of the music on his movies...bet u guys didnt even know that?!
Bruce was one of those people that couldnt do anything half way, he knew the value of time and refused to live his life half way. Its waaaaaay beyond martial arts and it really bugs the crap out of me that everyone is always sooooo stuck in martial arts. Its like If i bought a blender, and only thing u can see is the Margarita's the blender can make. Its like me all my life studying philosophy, martial arts, construction, business, religion, cooking and music, I get one hit record ..and suddenly ..Im that MUSIC Dewd that made a big hit record...NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, im the guy that did whatever he had to to become the best at what he wanted ..Im not a "music dewd"
Bruce found a method of being successful in life. To not waste time ...find the shortest distance between your ego and your goal. He knew the battle that entailed him that he had to battle against his own flaws and desires, his personality was sooo strong that his battle was huge.
It drives me freakin bonkers to see people worship him like some sort of immortal God. He was a human being that fought his ego and constantly strived through out his life to be his best at WHATEVER!! So JKD, JKDC, OJKD, honestly ...I play along cause its just fun to argue symantecs...keeps me sharp.
But truth is ....its not even just about martial arts.
Sorry ..I couldnt cater to the ignorance anymore, im feeling grouchy and opinionated today. Tough NunChuks...deal. The truth hurts :-p
Well ladies and gentlemen, close shop and batten down the hatches!!! Ricky has just told us to shut-up and sit down lol. Nevermind what I, Curt, or anyone else said. Ricky and his philosophy has got all the answers. That's why his life is so stabalized, his love life is so balanced and complete, all his goals have been achieved, and his career so fulfilling. After all, would it not make sense for your life to be that perfect when you talk such wisdom on a website? It wouldn't make sense to not live the life that a person with such superiority in wisdom adamantly teaches on a daily basis. LOL Anything less than living that life would simply be hypocrisy walking around like a living Aristotle. He always wants us to challenge him mentally to keep sharp (meaning he already claims he is). So with great humbleness and without further interruptions, educate us, oh wise one!
I don't know what all this talk is about there being 3 types of JKDC practitioners. I was under the impression that Dan Inosanto started the whole JKDC movement. There are typically 2 types of JKD, Bruce Lee's approach and Dan Inosanto's approach. If you're not doing what Dan Inosanto does, then you're not doing JKDC... That simple.
This is not mean't to provoke you. Just want to tell you where I'm coming from. I have told you I do jujitsu separatly from JKD but not because I believe JKD has holes in it but because I'm a Jap/o/holic and fan of the Samurai. So I guess the question is what is the real difference between what I do and what you do, not much really. Our philospies may differ but not where it counts. The problem with JKDC is that in the very near future even today, there are many who don't believe you need to learn the core to do JKD. That is why I said eariler I believe OJKD to be the only way to perserve JKD. Though you may disagree with all or some of my statments this is what I believe.
Curt, I respect your genuinity. And I do happen to like jujitsu very much. Brazillian and Japanese. I just saw The Last Samurai today and I loved it! I would put it up there with Gladiator and Braveheart. As far as the JKD stuff, all I am going to say about that is that if you ever got into the concepts training, you will realize that you need to learn the original in order to understand the concepts. No true concepts man ever starts slapping arts together. That is an ignorant statement of someone that has never experienced training in what you would call a true concepts school. And as far as I'm concern, I do not believe in the name original or concepts. There is no this way or that way. If you go to the mother school of all JKD schools, The Inosanto Academy, Dan clearly shows you this. The JKD ciriculum there is listed as Jun Fan Gung Fu....the thing that original practitioners call original JKD. The way Bruce taught it unaltered. Concepts are just to show you how you can apply the philosophy and knowledge behind JKD into other martial arts, into other aspects of you as a person, and in life in general. That is a seperate class unto itself. There is no defilement of JKD in doing this. How can you defile learning and education? In other words, most people on the site are original I think (I could be wrong). The Kali, Muy Thai, and BJJ classes are seperate. If you want, Dan can show you how Kali, BJJ, and Muy Thai can fit with JKD, since JKD can assume all styles because it has none. But that would be your choice. I understand your point and where you are coming from. I just want you to know what you are saying is just a misunderstanding. If you ever have some spare time, I would recommend you going down to the Inosanto Academy in Los Angeles. I am confident that you will be pleasently surprised.
