The people at the World Jeet Kune Do Federation stole the instructors list that I had made for my website and are now using it on there site. This list took me a LONG time to put together and I will not have it stolen like this. They took the list from: http://www.bigjkd.com/jkdinstructors.htm
I wrote the person in charge to see what they have to say.
Oh, and THEY have to balls to copyright something they stole. What a bunch of clowns.
That totally sucks. But that is a wonderful list. I really like the way it shows the lineage, has the address, contact information and website. It's really well put together. I'm thinking of joining a JKD school in NYC and might use the list at some later point. Thanks.
I went to the world jkd site To compare the lists. It is now not avalible to any one but members. That is not so good. First the list is ment to allow people to perhaps find an instructor in there area. It would not hurt my feelings if all jkd sites posted the list. Lets say maybe the list started with You. And thanks for taking the time to do it. And Now the wjkdf has a list And perhaps someone else. Its good for jkd Not just the person who made the list. That person did good to do so and make it public. And I would say they should be glad for others that follow. I can not say the wjkdf stole a list I can say they took the time to compile and and post There list to there site. And if your name is listed then it does you good also. JKD is to much fought over these days. WE all are just exploreing what is and will become our JKD. Not making ourself the one and only hate this word master. What we contribute should be to help others to learn and by that learn more ourself. A list to start with brings students that wish to learn. The rest is on the instructors. How they teach or giude. The student learn from that then learns from his self. How to make things work . Remember back when it was very hard to find a JKD instructor. And how the art has grown to where there are several world wide now. And now a list no matter where it is that can take a beginer or advanced m/a to a near by jkd school. It helps much in expanding and keeping things growing. And I hope the wjkdf brings the list back to the public. And that you keep yours post also You and they are doing a good service to the public. And would offer that list to any JKD group to post on ther site to spread the word. I stand behind you and the wjkdf with thanks for making such a list.
Well..., maybe you could get them to give you credit by having them put on there something like "Information was provided from BIG Sean Madigan at: www.combativesolutions.com", ya' know something along those lines. Plus you'll probably get more site visitors or even members if you can get them to give you this credit.
What happened to your boy Jason Rodriguez? His website no longer works. Have you been updating your instructors list? Cause it sounds like the guy went out of business because it seems that his website is no longer active. Unless he's updating his website or it's being hosting by a site that isn't active 24 hrs a day. Seeing that I live in the Bronx I wanted to check out his website to see if I may consider joining his school. Oh well, let me know if he's still actively teaching.
Nice list, glad to see my instructor's name on there... I'm glad to see my instructor is one of the few people to train with Ted Wong... And, what is Dan Inosanto's message? Is he trying to make a statement, because 3/4 of everyone on there is from Dan's lineage. I thought Bruce didn't like to hand out many certificates?
Sean, I know you want this to be dropped but I do wish to say that it was wrong to do that!
You have a great site and that list is really good and I can tell that you put alot of work into it!
Just wanted to say that!
Hey Anonymous, if Bruce only certified 3 people while he was alive (James, Taky, and Dan), then where did all these certificates come from you ask? Well there
's a nice little story about after Bruce died. Everyone under Bruce, to continue their training and study, went to Dan. All of a sudden there is a thing called original JKD. And all these original JKD teachers and instructors that don't go along with the concepts JKD.....where do you think they all got certified from? That's right! Dan! He was the only one who gave them out. So the only way the original JKD instructor could have been born....was through Dan, a concepts man. Now you have all these guys that look at Dan and said "Thank you Sifu for your knowledge and time" to....."that guy doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. He is not teaching it the way Bruce wanted." Go figure. I'm sure Bruce would love the respect all those guys gave to his best friend. The guy he spent almost 80 percent of his time with helping him develop the very system he is accused of defiling.
I hope that all is well with you, and that you had a great Thanksgiving! Now onto my comments!
One thing that you seem to be forgetting here is that while Bruce Lee was still alive, Dan Inosanto taught the curriculum the EXACT way that Bruce wanted it taught, in other words, STRAIGHT JEET KUNE DO, or what you have referred to as original Jeet Kune Do. It was not until after he passed away that all of the other material started getting added to the curriculum. So in other words, those who got their certifications from Dan while Bruce was still alive WERE certified in "original" Jeet Kune Do. At that time the was no "original" or "concepts", only Jeet Kune Do as developed, practiced and taught by Bruce Lee! That is a simple fact! The problems came that caused the "separation" if you will, of the groups, was when so many of the First Generation students who had also trained personally with Bruce Lee, started seeing the curriculum stray FAR from what Bruce Lee was doing! It was no longer Jeet Kune Do!
In order for a method to be preserved, and this holds true for ANYTHING, someone has to see to it that the original teachings of the method's founder are kept intact. That was the goal of those who separated from Inosanto during that time. No one should have a problem with this, but instead, with calling something Jeet Kune Do that is clearly NOT Jeet Kune Do, and goes directly against the principles that Bruce Lee laid out! That is where the problem started, that is where the problem has been, and that is probably always where the problem will be!
In Bruce Lee's lifetime, the word "concepts" was never used in association with Jeet Kune Do. It was an art, a method, a system of learning with a definite curriculum! Anyone on this forum can try to say differently, but I've been doing nothing but this art for 26 years, and believe me, I know what I am talking about here!
Keep Blasting!
Sifu Lamar M. Davis II
Head Instructor/Founder
Hardcore Jeet Kune Do Academy
Hardcore Jeet Kune Do Chinese Gung Fu Association http://www.HardcoreJKD.com http://www.RealCombatOnline.com
Sifu@HardcoreJKD.com
Phone (205) 956-1901
"Hit Hard, Hit Fast, Hit First - ALWAYS!"
This message has been edited by Sifu Lamar M. Davis II on Dec 6, 2003 1:09 AM
Hello Sifu Lamar. I have talked with you a few times and we seemed to get along very well and if our communication was kept up, I'm sure it could even blossom into a great friendship. It is clear where we both stand on the subject of JKD as shown by the many posts you and I have made. It is very special to both of us and we try to train and carry on what we believe in our hearts to be true. I do not wish that our good repoire be broken by our lack of agreement and this is a sensitive subject being that we feel so strongly about our ways of thinking. But I will have to respectfully disagree. I am not here to start a feud but I simply do not believe as you. First off, Dan told me personally that while Bruce was alive, no one was certified except him, Taky, and James. Only Bruce certified people and until he died, then Dan started certifying people. Otherwise the trio of James, Taky, and Dan would be irrelevant and never brought up. The word concepts was never brought to public print while Bruce was alive. This is correct as Bruce never publicly said the word "concept". However Dan said that Bruce explained they were concepts to him which is where the name was born. He brought out what was told to him in private. As far as the ciriculum starting to stray and all that, the ciriculum was never in one set way for too long to begin with. That's because Bruce wanted to prevent the crystallization of JKD which is what I believe original JKD guys are doing. They are taking his ideas and saying they were done this way at such and such a time and no one can change it. The concept of water was constantly brought up by Bruce to represent that truth cannot be shaped, molded, and stay the same all the time. Truth changes from moment to moment and so is with combat. The reason there even was a ciriculum to begin with is cause Dan bugged Bruce to make one to start people out with something tangibile so they could see their progression from a foundation....that being what you call original JKD. But Bruce himself stated...."If a martial art is to maintain it's effectiveness, it most evolve and change with the times". Bruce would not say this if his intentions were to keep JKD of the 1960's the same. And even among original JKD, the JKD of 1967 looked different from the JKD of 1970. And the 1970 JKD still evolved even more into the JKD of 1973 so there really was no one JKD that lasted for too long. The JKD of the 1960's was meant for Bruce Lee as it was his personal approach. It worked for him. The creation of JKD was to combat the classical arts which were stuck in their ways. In other words, the founder created a system and specifically told them "This is the truth. You cannot change it". JKD is the very first martial art where the founder is saying "don't be caught up in systems or in methods. I don't believe there is any one way of doing things." Each man will fight different and each man will have to explore his own weaknesses and strengths. The kali was added later because yes.....that was Dan's way of JKD. But even Dan's way was constantly changing as he would add and subtract techniques from different systems. Bruce was doing this the whole time while he was alive. So Dan was just trying to copy the "concept" of the training which seperates the training of a JKD man from a classical martial arts man. Every time you go to a classical school, the instructor is trying to have all the students learn the system and fight the same way using all the same techniques. If JKD was meant to stay the way Bruce did it back in the 60's, it would be no different. Why be enslaved to a system that was meant to free it's practioners? I know the way you think and believe are different than mine and I respect that. However if this is going to become just another....this is my point and it's done this way because......and I do the same, it won't go anywhere. You express your feelings and ideas as I do. Are either of us wrong? No. You are using what you like and what you are comfortable with and I am using what I am comfortable with and what works for me. We both use the Wing Chun, Fencing, and Boxing arts as our core foundation as well as the core principles that you have mentioned as well. You don't like that Dan added the Fillipino, BJJ, and Muy Thai. I have said in another post why he did this. Back in the 60's, JKD was in development (and still is as we speak). Fillipino arts were not well known in the states as well. Bruce didn't add it cause it didn't work for him specifically. Although he came in the next day with a pair of kali sticks and did a kind of specific kali pattern that he could not have known about as Dan exclaimed "that's X way of Kali!" Bruce said I don't know what you call it, but that's how I would use them. If what original guys say about Bruce is true, he would never have even picked up the sticks to begin with. It doesn't matter what culture started with the sticks, or what culture started with the high kicks. In Return of the Dragon he said "If it can help you in a fight, then use it. It doesn't matter where it comes from". Bruce would not say this if he objected someone to stray off the "original mindset of JKD". Also Fillipino arts are known for their weapons.....stick and knife. If an original JKD guy were to square off against an armed assailant that knew the knife and stick like a trained kali man, 80 percent chance of winning would be given over to the kali man cause their are no weapons in original JKD. And the realistic defenses against a man with a knife are very slim if any. Running is your best and first option. And if you can't run, then finding an equilizer like using your sneaker, tying a shirt around your arm and hand, or breaking a bottle would even up the odds. You try and take on more than three guys by yourself in a fight unarmed, you are going to have a very slim chance of winning. If you are a trained with the knife, you can take out 15 guys....no lie. So by incoporating the knife and stick, the JKD man becomes efficient with hand held weapons, strengthing his competence in that range. When an original JKD man is thrown to the ground by a BJJ, unless they do eye gouges and illegal moves, the JKD man has a poor chance against a trained grappler. When incorporating seasoned ground skills from the likes of the Gracies or the Machado brothers, the JKD man learns to manuever better and the strength of that art he learns gets fused into the already devestating arsenal of the stand up original JKD man. 32 or 33 sets moves learned by Wally Jay, Gene Labell, and Hayward Nishioka don't come close to the effective ground figting skills of the Gracies. One of the things about JKD that I like is to learn the cause of your own ignorance. That means do away with old methods that were good at one point and set aside your ego and embrace what is new that is more efficient. That's why you learn the ground from them. They are the masters of the ground. The others were good but they had rules and limitations on their grappling. Muy Thai was added cause it's effective thai kick. Very devestating and powerful. Ok it's almost 5 in the morning and I'm going to sleep. I could and would love to get into a deeper debate but if this means it would risk ruining our friendship as a result of a disagreement, I will politely decline. I will say this......I respect you. More than you think. Just because I disagree with some ideas you have is no indication that I intend to further this any more than is necessary. You are obviously going to stick to your ways and me to mine. Thanks for supplying me with your input. It is always appreciated and I hope someday we could somehow find a compromise to not try and overload vocally on each other when we finally meet in the hopes of trying to initiate each other into our own ways of thought. LOL Thank you very much.
This message has been edited by Lenmaster on Dec 6, 2003 4:51 AM This message has been edited by Lenmaster on Dec 6, 2003 4:45 AM
The classic argument
Bruce Lee was taking away alot and simplifying JKD more. And that JKD is allready good enough ect. ect.
This is a good argument for some, especially when making money off of the traditional JKD, they cannot move away from the traditional! Making tons of money from books and videos ect. from the JKD name! To me it is not about money, it is about giving someone a tool to better there lives and to make them a good fighter while watching them grow! A good Sifu values this most!
Some of us trully believe that if Bruce was alive he would have added more! His own words of having no set ways or limitations speaks volumes and the idea that is one of the reasons why we call it a concept and not a style! Besides Bruce hated the JKD name! He hated that and as soon as each person got his Cert. and started teaching he added his own flavor and changed it!
To be free of this limitation and clinging to set ways and patterns! Ju Jitsu or whatever being added to enhance their own WAY, instead of being stuck!
Life is unpredictable as is a street fight and we must have the freedom to grow and strengthen our own way anyway we see fit! Each of us with our own weakness and strengths! What is wrong with adding ju jitsu or Kali to your way? It takes money from JKD? Hell I do not know! only the Traditonal JKDers think that way! Why? Think about it!~ Freedom reigns supreme in life! and does the word Traditional belong in JKD?
Not the our way rules and should stay the same! Too much macho bull and finger pointing! And stuck beliefs for me to stomach!
but it is understandable if money is the driving force and they see JKD as a money making oppurtunity!
The Idea of Selling JKD certs via the web> buy my books and videos, get a once a month Email conference and get certified? OMG whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa? this is so dishonorable and wrong! JKD is becoming a money makin commercial McDojo ART just like so many others! How sick is that? These video tapes and mags and book are producing frauds every where! MY sifu would only teach someone a technique in person, believing that selling half truth stuff was wrong and produces bad martial artists, I too feel that way! Alot of the good stuff is kept out! And no one can learn properly from written material and videos ect.!
The world of JKD is tainted by this! And Greed!
Just my opinion is all
now all of you money makin super JKDers can come out of the woodwork and yell, but this is the truth!
Develop your own way! Let go of JKD and its trappings and stuck Sifu's
LMAO
We have now gone from the post subject to The allways JKD politics. WHy will JKD be an argued subject All the time. Fisrt Yes Dan was a original student. So was James And taki. Lets see James passed in dec 1972. Was a very respected member of Bruces Friends and students. HE only taught what Bruce would allow. Taki Still alive and teaching What Bruce Had taught. Even Today. Dan Still alive On the JKd side teaches what bruce taught. Then gives concepts of other Arts to the students say choice. For personal development. But does not call those concepts JKD but JKD concepts. So he to leaves the JKD as Bruce traught In the point of ///JUN FAN> Every body has to relize when Bruce died NOBODY was made the Head Perhaps if James had lived He may have. But he was gone. Taki did not want to jump into the lime light. And DAN did not either. He went on to study and explore other arts. And chose his way. A lot of pressure went to Dan to take JKd and teach and continue. I believe He felt much preesure from the public view to do so. And yet remain loyal to Bruce. And from there the concepts began. Yes he went and certified the remainder of the backyard students .That had studied under Bruce. Thay chose The path in which they would teach. And some stayed to the original teching path. No We call things OJKD and JKDC First how would Bruce had made changes IF he was alive today. NOBODY knows for sure. He new ther were only so many ways to punch kick grapple or any defence or offenceive movment. As far as weapons For real yes if trained you can perform. with them. But will they be with you when you need them. I think not. So unarmed selfdefence will be with anywhere you go. AND in todays world Most all the strike or stab weoplns wont work. WHY most of the people carrying a weapon will carry a gun. And if you check people with weapon defence skills still end up on the ground. ITS good training but has little real use in street combat. Not unlees you are the attacker. THis is not 100 or 200 years ago. And surely not the movies. One thing for sure JKD is the most argued subject of the m/a field. ThATS a shame. LOOk at the boxer of the thirys and today The thirtys boxers would still and perhaps be better then many today. IT boils down to training and skills. GRound fight. Since when is a combat fight not ring fight to have ilegal tools. There is NO rules of engagement there. In the ring is different. Yes the Gracies perform well But so do just plain wrestlers with no jujitsu training at all. JKD was bruces chosen path to train And he did that until he passed. Yes he would have grown more in the what of doing BUt not that much. Bruce first was just a man. As any who have ever trained. And thounsands on this earth could beat him in combat for real. Jaust as they can beat you or I. But he gave a path of learning Call it JUN FAN/// OR JKD He trained it he taught it. You either learn it or not. ANY thing else is concepts ther of or just plain not JKD. NOW if you develop your personalextinsions to it then it is your personal jkd just as when you train spar and do your way of the jkd tools. BUT teach it as such jkd concepts ojkd extended jkd. or by an other name. Right or wrong one thing for sure the more JKD is argued over how can it keep growing. ITs getting like the old child saying MY DAD CAN BEAT YOUR DAD. Who cares just do it or not. and let others do what they do.
Thanks for your comments amd I too respect your opinion! I think in person, you and I would get along quite well. Another thing, however, that I would like for you to consider is that all three of Dan's certificates were awarded on the same day in 1967. Now, that leaves six years unaccounted for with no further certification. Now, I think Dan met Bruce Lee in 1964. So according to dates and paper, Dan progressed to level three (of EIGHT by the way) in three years but didn't get any better over the next six. Doesn't make sense does it? Well, neither does this whole who is and isn't certified argument! If Bruce Lee had continued giving certificates up until he died, no telling who would have been ranked in JKD by then, and what rank they would hold! So, because of that six year void, that certificate means just that, you got a certificate. So what? Some would argue further by saying "Did you stop training at that point or what?" Why didn't you progress any in six years? Anyway, I'm sure you get my point by now. If Bruce Lee stopped giving certificates, it probably meant that he felt they were a waste of time and no longer necessary. That's what I think anyway!
Hello Fish!
Man, I wish I was making a lot of money! I was just sitting here this morning thinking about all I have to pay for right now and where I am going to get the money to pay for it, and we're just talking monthly bills here! Christmas presents for family still haven't even been factored into the equation! Anyay, you must know something that I don't about where all this money is, so please feel free to share your information! Also, I don't know what rock you have been under, but most of those teaching Bruce Lee's original art are in the hole financially. We are certainly not making all of this money you mentioned! It is those who follow the "Hmmmm, let's see, if I add kali and muay Thai to my curriculum this month, I bet it would draw in students interested in learning those arts! Let's see, we'll also do a kickbox aerobic class and yoga class to draw the women in!" $$$$$$$$$$$$ Cha-ching!!!!! You are looking at things backwards pal! It's the concepts people making all the money!
Keep Blasting!
Sifu Lamar M. Davis II
Head Instructor/Founder
Hardcore Jeet Kune Do Academy
Hardcore Jeet Kune Do Chinese Gung Fu Association http://www.HardcoreJKD.com http://www.RealCombatOnline.com
Sifu@HardcoreJKD.com
Phone (205) 956-1901
Wow! This thread totally strayed off from it's original intent. Anyway, since Sean Madigan never addressed my comment then I'm going to add to the secondary comments.
All of the subjects already addressed I've thought long and hard about. I've been a big fan of JKD for years and have spent $$$ on books and such. Lately I've come on to a few JKD forums and have learned alot about the politics.
Bruce certified 3 people in his art, James, Taki and DAn. Dan (Inosanto) was the only member who was certified in all 3 arts Bruce taught. According to Dan he teaches the original stuff, some like to call it OJKD. He also teaches other MA's in his Academy which some may call JKDC. One is free to learn what one wants. Sounds cool to me.
Some of the peeps teaching OJKD were never certified under Bruce or James, Taki or Dan to teach, now this is where the whole who is certified and who isn't come into place. I'll leave it at that.
As far as making money off of the JKD name. Well, everyone who professes to teach JKD and charges their student for it are making money off of it. Anyone who sells JKD tapes are making money off of it. Anyone who gives JKD seminars are making money off of it. That pretty much includes every single person who uses the JKD name whether it's JKD, OJKD or JKDC. But that doesn't necessarily make one a money hungry crook because they are trying to make a living off of it.
Perhaps in the old days you could work a 9 to 5 and have backyard students training free of charge for your own benefit and martial growth but when you make JKD or any MA your 9 to 5 then you have to have enough money to pay your bills. You need to become part teacher and part businessman because you ARE running a business and businesses are NOT cheap.
As far as fraud in the JKD name. I come from a traditional background. 3 styles of Taekwondo. In each one has to train between 3 to 5 years inorder to receive a black belt. And a few more years inorder to be able to teach. In JKD I've seen way, WAY too many posts of people getting JKD instructors certification by attending seminars. I've seen others that can be procured by buying a couple of tapes and studying them. Then once one has mastered it all, then all they needed to do was replicate what they have seen on the tape on their own tape and send it back for certification. Ofcourse, they all come with a heavy price tag.
By Bruce not trying to create his own style, he left it wide open for people to decide what JKD really was. Is it a concept? Is it the curriculum in his schools? Was it defined? So many questions that Bruce Lee could not answer. Funny thing is that he wanted us to find our own way. Well, that led to alot of fraud in the JKD community. He was a great martial artist but he wasn't all knowing. If we could resurrect him today who knows what his thoughts on the present status of JKD or the politics are. Part of me would love to thing that he might say, "Well, whether they believe it or not they are following their own way". That is JKD.
I know what you're saying Lester. But you need to admit that most JKD peeps only claim to fame is either studying under Bruce Lee or being an instructor of his art. They are ALL making money on Bruce's name.
Aside from that I do know that some JKD instructors like Dan are humble and will do seminars inorder to spread their art. Whether it be JKD the way Bruce taught it or their own take on it as some may call JKDC. Their main goal is to spread the art that Bruce Lee passed on them and they do take compensation because they are human and need to eat.
On the flip side there are some JKD instructors who's main objective in JKD is to make money by seminars, video tapes, dvd's, certifications and any which way they can. Some of these money hungry instructors can truly teach effective skills and some are charlattans but both are in it only for the money. These are the instructors making Bruce's art of JKD be a part of those classical messes known as McDojos. Shame on them.
