I must reiterate that I am neither a JKD nor Wing Chun stylist and know very little about trapping other than what I've read and seen. I thought about incorporating trapping into my personal training regimen but now I'm not too sure.
I have been to quite a number of JKD forums in the last week or so absorbing what is usefull and discarding what is useless. Some of the JKDC peeps under Paul Vunak or Burton Richardson or whatever have talked about the uselessness of trapping in a street fight. Is this true? Do you find that trapping isn't effective on the street?
I'd like to hear from anyone's point of view on the subject. I know that Jun Fan Gung Fu has alot of Wing Chun techniques incorporated into the art including trapping. Or am I mistaken?
I would say If you trap when you can and hit when you can trapping will work. You do not really trap to trap You trap to be able to defend and strike back. And it has to be one same motion. lin si lin di da. Not trap then strike trap and strike.. But The more skills your opponent has the better you must be. You can yous traps as a entry tool also. It does not have to be a parry then trap Just trap the tool and enter your strike kick ect. or take down to the ground. But its allways better to hit when you can trap when you can. But just my thoughts
For my personal taste trapping is useless. It is a waste of time. Not only could I have used the moment for striking instead of holding, but the hand I use for trapping my opponents is also useless.
I personally would not get into this whole buisness of touching each other a lot before you feel there is an oppotunity to hit. Just hit your opponent and go home.
Trapping and the energy exercises associated with it are absolutely essential to JKD, and Bruce Lee thought highly of these Wing Chun adaptations. It teaches instinctive and lightening fast knowledge of a person's intentions and energy patterns, so that you naturally beat him to the punch. Although what happens in the gym and what happens in the street are two different things, these trapping skills and energy exercises can come in handy in close quarters -- Larry Hartsell, a close friend of Bruce's and a student from the L.A. days, writes that these trapping skills:
"will aid you in other areas of fighting, [and] make you extremely sharper and faster than you imagined possible.
"Bruce Lee taught trapping as part of his core program to his students. Trapping in Jeet Kune Do is no less or more important element of traing in Jeet Kune Do. It should be explored and emphasized to all who truly seek the best within themselves and become much more rounded martial artists and fighters" (Jeet Kune Do: Hardcore Training and Strategies Guide, 2002, 50).
Sifu Lamar Davis is also big on trapping and advocates its use.
I've used trapping on skilled amateur boxers in a very alive environment. Trapping can work and the liklihood of it working increases if you train it in a high pressure environment. The more common guard structure espoused by many fighters today doesn't occupy centerline and thus the high outside engagement doesn't occur as much, although the swinging gate and "wedge" bil gee techniques still work. The high outside reference does occur if you punch in the opponent's high outside gate. Outside pak sao with an inside punch by capture (split entry) works well still even against a boxing structure.
In terms of street fighting, I think that people are likely to stick their hands out in front to make distance/ward off attacks. It seems to be an intuitive way to set physical boundaries and is a potential reference point.
The big thing to remember is that it isn't "trapping range" but close range attacking range (straight blast, elbows, knees, headbutts and close range punching and gouging with immobilizations. Trapping is only a means to get to these and other tools.
YES! Trapping does work in the streets! How do I know? Because I have used it successfully on many occasions in street encounters. The problem usually comes when someone is not really well versed enough in trapping to actually apply it in a functional manner. Also, too many martial artists attempt to trap when it is not necessary to do so.
As practitioners of Jeet Kune Do, our primary interest is HITTING, KICKING and applying DAMAGING FORCE to the opponent. If I can successfully land a few quick shots and drop an opponent, that is the preferred approach. However, if the opponent is very defensive by nature, and likes to block and cover up, that is where trapping skill will serve me well.
Remember, first THINK HIT! Then if you cannot get in due to obstruction(s) on your line of attack, use your trapping skills to remove those obstructions and land a clean blow!
Although trapping is mostly considered a by-product of hitting, it is also possible to attack with the intention of trapping the opponent’s limbs. This is often a tactic used against opponents who like to block, in other words, a defensive fighter. This is why Bruce Lee named one of his five ways of attack HIA, or Hand Immobilization Attack.
Much work goes into the development of effective trapping skill, so many Jeet Kune Do practitioners prefer to avoid this training. These are usually the ones that make statements such as “trapping doesn’t work” or “you don’t need trapping!” The truth of the matter is that they are too lazy to learn to trap properly, or just aren’t willing to put in the time to develop effective trapping tools! I look at it like this: Why would Bruce Lee name one of his five ways of attack hand immobilization attack if he didn’t feel that there was a need for trapping in Jeet Kune Do? He wouldn’t! Therefore it is necessary!
Those practitioners who say that you don’t need trapping often use the argument that Bruce Lee didn’t use or teach trapping toward the end of his teaching career. For trapping to be necessary, the opponent must be able to obstruct the line that you are attacking. Bruce Lee’s skill was at a level where no one could obstruct that line. If you were that fast, why would you need to trap? There would be nothing to trap because you would always land a clean hit! How many of us can say that we can do that, EVERY TIME! I know that I can’t! Therefore, trapping is a very necessary skill and an extremely important part of our training process! And besides, if and when Bruce Lee needed to trap, don’t think for a second that the trap wouldn’t be there! It was well ingrained into his neuromuscular response system!
I have always taught my students that there are five main elements necessary for the development of effective trapping skills. They are: (1) reference point trapping, (2) energy/sensitivity training, (3) mook jong training, (4) application drills and (5) stress testing. Reference point trapping teaches the mechanics of trapping, or the “how.” Energy/sensitivity training teaches the ability to sense energies and know which trap to use in certain situations. In other words, the “when” of trapping. Mook jong training teaches you to economize your structure and puts the power into your trapping techniques. The application drills help you to learn about when trapping can best be used. Stress testing puts it on the line and helps you fully functionalize your trapping skills for live street application.
These elements combined lead to a high level of contact reflex skill. You must be able to respond on contact with an opponent’s offensive or defensive energy with the correct movement. There are many drills that train you to respond quickly and efficiently to certain movements. Those who say that you don’t need trapping definitely have not developed this skill, and truly don’t have a clue as to the advantages of developing proficient trapping skills!
Keep Blasting!
Sifu Lamar M. Davis II
Head Instructor/Founder
Hardcore Jeet Kune Do Academy
Hardcore Jeet Kune Do Chinese Gung Fu Association http://www.HardcoreJKD.com http://www.RealCombatOnline.com
Sifu@HardcoreJKD.com
Phone (205) 956-1901
Most street situations are spontaneous and are very "ugly"...at least the ones I have been in. You have to ask your self what is an actual trap...I am not talking about "technique". For that matter I consider mounting a guy and smashing his face in a "trap". Or if a guy begins to tell me he is going to beet the hell out of me I raise my hands in a de-escalative position (palms out) and attempt to verbally diffuse the situation. When I teach the de-escalative position I call it deceptive posture...It can "trap" the opponent in many different ways...including psychologically.
Personally I consider a "trap" anything that stalls his timing, gums him, up and presents oppurtunity to me. He steps forward..I hit him in the face...his head snaps back..giving me an extra second..to...to...punch him again....wolla...a "trap"
I used to think in the terms of "technique"...there are only tools...principles...strategies..and targets...
My personal take is this, trapping works ive had it work well for me..
Ive never trapped someone on a open move as was stated above. a skilled fighter should know enough not to hold on to someone (causing self traps) or leave there hands dangling were they can be trapped..
simple traps can work well in the opening...
more complex traps seem to be effective only after u have disoriented someone.
I've heard all the arguments about trapping not being effective it is because they are a misunderstood tool.. Dont assume because someone traps that there going to try trapping constantly a trap occurs because its there to occur, if its not there why look for it?
Like everything else each person preferes different techniques to reach the same end goal, So just because something doesnt work for 1 person doesnt mean it doesnt work for the next, also like everything else practice makes perfect...
To really ask if one weapon or one technique is usefull in a street fight is rather silly considering the varibles are constantly different for every person and there never really is 2 same situations.
I do not study jkd (though ive read pretty much all teh books on the subject) I practice Wing Chun,tai chi,chin na...
I would say its more important to understand sensitivity and have the ability to flow freely then it is to know a certain technique....However I dont mean that techniques are useless its just 1 more piece of a bigger puzzle....
JKogas - I wouldn't argue with Jiyasa man. It's not everyday you get to have the luxery of hearing an opinion from a person that fought and defeated Jet Li, who lived to talk about it.
Trapping CAN work depending who you are and most importantly who your fighting.. but for me.. its not advisable to train to trap.(y try to trap a mouse when it is just staying at one position?) y try to tray a person when he is already open to start with?just a theory.. and traping is not intercepting. it would be better to intercept a half way strike by striking rather than to trap a strike that you are not certain it can be "trappable".. let me ask a question can you trap a non telegraphic punch?( a non-prior movement to the initial objective,not giving away when he strikes but suddenly WHAAM) can you trap that? or maybe lets look at it at another point of view: a strong telegraphic punch..can you trap tyson?or someone of that strenth and size? dont think so but can you intercept him with a finger jab to his eye?yes! so im saying trapping can be done but it is unadvisable... agree john?
I've seen this thread for quite a while.. thought about responding but not sure of how. . I see people are adamant about this thing one way or the other, but to be more neutral, i'd say it's all about the time and place for technique, a, b, or c. just because technique a worked in circumstance b, doesn't mean that technique a will work in all circumstances. If people say trapping doesn't work .. then say why.. not because it just doesn't .. but why it doesn't . and those that say that it does.. propose why it does ..but i don't want this kind of argument..well i 've used it in streetfights.. or it doesn't happen in the ring.. is it something in the technique? something that could be further refined? but i wonder why limit trapping to just hands? what about head, or neck traps, foot traps, etc.. just a thought. oh wait i've just ventured into the realm of clinching ..*gasp* :p
It seems that with a few people on here there is a misconception of what trapping is and how it works. Trapping is not trying to snatch someone's incoming strike out of the air! I'll admit that is a stupid idea! Trapping is used for removing obstructions on your line of attack, it's just that simple! Your primary objective should still be to HIT! If your opponent attempts to close the line you are attacking, trap the limb they are using and hit to an open line.
Also, too many people are of the bold misconception that your opponent has to be standing still for you to trap! That is totally false! The whole idea of trapping is that it is not necessary unless a strike is obstructed. If a strike is obstructed, I don't care what else is going on, a trap can occur! Now, whether the person executing the trap has the sensitivity, contact reflex and timing to pull it off, that is another story. But then it all basically goes back to how well trained you are!
The bottom line is this: Good trapping, REAL trapping is very explosive and extremely aggressive. Even the trapping action itself is an attack in the way that it causes pain to the limb being trapped (and possibly more, such as broken ribs or whiplash) and it completely destroys the opponent's structure! If your trapping isn't like that, then no wonder it is not working for you! Go learn from someone that teaches REAL trapping. You will never look at it in the same way again!
Keep Blasting!
Sifu Lamar M. Davis II
Head Instructor/Founder
Hardcore Jeet Kune Do Academy
Hardcore Jeet Kune Do Chinese Gung Fu Association http://www.HardcoreJKD.com http://www.RealCombatOnline.com
Sifu@HardcoreJKD.com
Phone (205) 956-1901
Anything can be effective in a street fight, its just having the reflexes to make the move at the right time.
For intstnce, before I studied martial arts when someone would try to scare me from behind ..I'd blink and cover my face like a bad B movie. Over time after training I now would jump into a passive fighting stance ( passive meaning my hands subtley go into position without letting me look like im making a shaolin showdown lol ) - Thats instinctive and trained into my muscle memory now, I cant help it.
So with trapping it would be the same, you have a fraction of a second to react, If u have to think about trapping...there is a high chance of failure, because the time it takes to think and execute the correct movements, you will have a black eye.
Now, someone who has been doing it for a long time, will give you a black eye before u even launch your punch more than an inch lol.
Same thing goes for high above waist kicks, not everyone can pull it off in a real fight.
here's the thing ricky,your talking about automatically reacting to a certain action.. but you have to remember that Action is always faster than reaction! can a person read my min when im going to strike? no! so when will he know when to trap? when his eyes sense my punch half way(im not saying im so fast it cant be seen anymore) his brain sends electric signals to his muscles to trap me the delay of that whole process,my punch has already connected to him.. no matter how automatic it is.. you cannot trap a non-telegraphic striker..
I have already said this once and I will say it again for your benefit. Hopefully after reading this you will understand! Apparently you have a total misconception of what trapping is and how it works.
Trapping IS NOT snatching an incoming strike out of the air! Trapping is used when your opponent obstructs your line of attack (aka BLOCK). It can also be used off a parry of your own against the opponents attack (example: lop sao). When the line is obstructed, the trap is used to remove that obstruction to open the line for your attack to continue, or, to hold that obstruction in place while you attack a new open line.
Therefore, ANYONE who blocks can be trapped! It's just that simple. The remaining element here is the skill level of the martial artist attempting the trap. They either have it or they do not!
ALL Jeet Kune Do practitioners should have HITTING as their main goal. You should be first thinking HIT! You DO NOT think trap! What you are describing as trapping would be "think trap". That's not how it works!
Keep Blasting!
Sifu Lamar M. Davis II
Head Instructor/Founder
Hardcore Jeet Kune Do Academy
Hardcore Jeet Kune Do Chinese Gung Fu Association http://www.HardcoreJKD.com http://www.RealCombatOnline.com
Sifu@HardcoreJKD.com
Phone (205) 956-1901
dude... i just find trapping unethical.. y trap when you can intercept? why trap if you could shuffle retreat and counter back. but the main question is can you trap a non-telegraphic striker?
OK, I guess you still do not understand! I'll try again to explain this! Please read this carefully so you will get it!
You said: y trap when you can intercept?
Answer: You wouldn't! Trapping has NOTHING to do with interception, or the opportunity to intercept! Once again, trapping is used when YOUR attack is obstructed (NOTHING to do with interception).
You said: why trap if you could shuffle retreat and counter back.
Answer: Why retreat when you could obliterate the opponent with a barrage of attacks applying forward pressure! Besides, to trap if you are shuffling back would mean that you weren't on the attack, but instead concerned with avoiding an incoming attack. Trapping occurs when YOU attack, not when the opponent initiates the attack! If the opponent initiates the attack I am going to intercept by attacking into his attack. That IS NOT trapping!
You said: but the main question is can you trap a non-telegraphic striker?
Answer: Once again (try to get it this time, as this is my last attempt to explain it), you trap when YOUR attack is obstructed! Whether the opponent is non-telegraphic or not has absolutely NOTHING to do with it! Trapping is applied when you are the aggressor, not the opponent! Trapping is basically a very strong backup system for a failed attack of your own, most commonly used against a highly defensive opponent. It enables you to blow right through their defenses and take them out!
I hope this clears this up for you this time! Good luck with your training!
Keep Blasting!
Sifu Lamar M. Davis II
Head Instructor/Founder
Hardcore Jeet Kune Do Academy
Hardcore Jeet Kune Do Chinese Gung Fu Association http://www.HardcoreJKD.com http://www.RealCombatOnline.com
Sifu@HardcoreJKD.com
Phone (205) 956-1901
An analogy to flowing water, I think that chi sao is way of sensing cracks while trapping is a way of creating cracks in the opponent's wall of defense. Trapping has nothing to do with catching finger jabs or nontelegraphic attacks. It involves an instantaneous response to the changes in the opponent's DEFENSE. If there is a gaping hole in the opponent's guard, then just HIT. But if the opponent's guard is tight and he blocks or makes contact with your arm, then there is the opportunity to trap that arm(handle) in order to create a hole in his defense that can be HIT.
How can trapping work when some pissed up psycho grabs you and starts hammering haymakers into your face. In theory it looks nice and flicky and fancey but in a full street fight it won't work.
Trapping wouldn't help you out when you're gettin pummeled. As mentioned in the 2 earlier posts, its for when you are the attacker. Besides, in a street fight you aren't supposed to let someone get that close. If they do, then you're into grappling stuff which is a whole new thread altogether.
I hope certain people on this list can fight better than they can read, for if they should happen to fight as well as they read, these (trapping-doesn't-work practitioners are lost in a real duel. If you hestitate to understand that trapping is an offensive manuever (offense as in attack) and not at all a thought-out defense attempt to intercept or to deflect passively, then you will surely hestitate in a fight and then a trap will be used against YOU.
The purpose of attack is to hit, or to oppress continually or to cause the defender into intentional thoughts which bring about gaps in action. You may have a good defense, but if you hestitate...
A TRAP.
bang.
You are hit.
Ps In cases (here some people bite their nails) where you are passively defending against a psyched up gigantic green Hulk, you are already outgunned. The trick was to stay clear of the fight in the first place. But should you passively find yourself in panic in face of an onslaught by a gigantic green Hulk, my suggestion is to find the door.
Agreed! It seems that for some reason, on this thread comprehension seems to be at an ALL TIME LOW! If someone is throwing haymakers at me, I'm gonna be coming right up the center ripping their throat out! As for use in live combat, YES, trapping can and does work quite well! In fact, that is when it works best, as sensitivity takes over and you just do what has to be done! It is not a pre-planned sequence of movements! It is not reacting in a set pattern! It is acting on WHAT IS rather than WHAT SHOULD BE or WHAT YOU THOUGHT WAS GOING TO BE!
ONE MORE TIME: Trapping is used when there is an obstruction on YOUR line of attack (YOU are the one attacking, GET IT?).
Keep Blasting!
Sifu Lamar M. Davis II
Head Instructor/Founder
Hardcore Jeet Kune Do Academy
Hardcore Jeet Kune Do Chinese Gung Fu Association http://www.HardcoreJKD.com http://www.RealCombatOnline.com
Sifu@HardcoreJKD.com
Phone (205) 956-1901
sorry Ok i was wrong! you guys dont have to be arses about it maybe trapping would work i a street fight for you but it doesnt for me. For people who are trying to learn and share opinions there are other ways than simple insults
Some people are of the mindset "if it doesn't work in the ring, it won't work in the street". Well he is an example of someone doing a WC style trap (kwan sao) in the "ring" during a Muy Thai match. Later in the match he does lin si di dar against a round kick and knocks his opponent out. Hopefully this can put an end to the endless "will trapping work" debate. Enjoy.
You could rephrase that and say that you haven't seen me much anywhere lately. Seriously I haven't been on this forum in a while either and I've only done a few recent posts at Lamars forum. Mostly I'm "up to my eyes in aligators" as one of my bosses used to say. (Got a boatload of work to do.) Yeah, Sean's forum is pretty much just MMA these days and that's fine. I still read it and post there if/when I feel I can actually contribute to the discussion.
I feel that if you can peform compound "trapping" then you can peform it. Who's going to tell you that you can't when you know you can, lol.
I believe that the reason so many are currently down on trapping is the time it takes to master it to reasonable degree of functionality. More people are simply chosing to concentrate on what may be deemed more "high percentage" technique.
It's for some (like myself) a matter of simply not HAVING all the time in the world to devote to training. I have a day job as do many here I imagine. I have to focus more on simple technique that I can practice dynamically. Daily decrease, right?
The Most Destructive Path to Victory Isn'’t Always a Straight Line
By Vincent D'Amore
Jeet kune do's "disengaging hand" maneuver is an excellent entering and striking technique that enables the JKD stylist to follow up with a multitude of body-breaking blows. Part of the attractiveness of the disengaging hand technique, often referred to as jao sao, is its simplicity; it is very easy to learn and execute. Any martial artist, regardless of his style, can benefit from learning the technique.
The disengaging hand maneuver originates from either a high or low reference point. If, for example, you jab at your opponent and he responds by blocking the punch with his lead arm, the two arms will meet and you will be in the correct reference position. If your opponent does not block the jab, the strike scores.
Technique #1
It is more realistic to assume, however, that the opponent will not allow you to hit him without putting up a defense, and trapping maneuvers such as the disengaging hand technique will therefore be necessary. Students will often simply start at this point when learning the disengaging hand maneuver. Advanced students, however, can assume a high reference point via some sort of combative motion, which helps heighten their timing and reflexes.
To execute the disengaging hand technique after your unsuccessful jab, take the hand that has just crashed into the opponent's blocking arm, disengage from the opponent, circle your arm to the outside, and hit your foe on a line parallel with the ground, yet out of the opponent's field of peripheral vision. Your rear hand is raised to check the opponent's lead arm as you disengage from his block. Your lead leg should be brought to a checking position, protecting against the opponent’s lower weapons; you don’t want to lose the fight because your opponent, falling back from your attack, lifts his leg and strikes your groin as he retreats. Strike the opponent not with your fingers, but rather your fist, a ridgehand, or a cupped palm. The primary targets are the ear, temporomandibular joint, tem- ple, and side of the neck. A forceful blow to the ear can rupture the eardrum or tympanic membrane. Even a lighter blow to the ear will cause disorientation and a prolonged ringing. If the opponent makes the mistake of blocking your ear strike with his lead hand, he crosses his centerline, leaving the entire side of his face open to a rear-hand cross, palm strike, or eye jab.
Technique #2
When practicing this disengaging maneuver with a partner, simply strike his shoulder, rather than a more delicate target, to allow him to feel the force that can be generated. "One should bring up the training intensity only as high as he wishes to receive the blows himself," warns Neil Cauliffe, a New York-based jeet kune do instructor.
Secondary targets from the jao sao maneuver include a low-line strike to the opponent's groin. By striking in an upward motion with either a palm, ridgehand or fist, you can generally deter you opponent from further aggression. Once the groin strike has landed, any necessary follow-up blows can be easily executed. If the strike is somehow thwarted, you can immediately return to a primary target or employ one of JKD's many limb-destruction techniques. For training purposes, the palm can be delivered safely to the opponent's inner-thigh when executing the low-line jao sao maneuver.
Your hand can also disengage from the opponent and be moved inside of his arms to strike his eyes. This technique is known as huen sao.
Even if your opponent responds successfully to your initial disengaging hand maneuver, you are prepared to follow up immediately with another technique. If, for example, he blocks your ear strike with his rear hand, you can easily follow up with a low-line strike to his groin. Similarly, if he blocks a groin technique, you can go follow up with a high strike to his ear.
Technique #3
A popular follow-up technique to a checked jao sao strike is the jut sao (jerking hand) maneuver. This is a slapping motion with both hands delivered to the outside of an opponent's arms. The force of the jut sao blow generally snaps the opponent's head forward, leaving him vulnerable to a neck chop and follow-up head butt to the face or a knee to the groin.
Jeet kune do's disengaging hand maneuver is a simple yet devastatingly effective technique that can give you a distinct advantage when fighting from trapping range. Not only can it be used to gain access to your opponent for an initial strike, but it paves the way for a variety of effective follow-up techniques. For street combat, it is difficult to find a more complete technique than JKD's disengaging hand maneuver.
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:p