Pardon me for being so ignorant, but after Jowan's post on internal connection I'm being interested in leanring about systema.
What is it exactly??
From what I've understood it's learning principles more than techniques.
Can someone enlighten me on this?
I'm not sure, you'd have to ask Jowan. I also got interested from that post and found a site about Systema some might enjoy. It has some history, about techniques, schools, instructors, a forum, and all that other good stuff. It is by Vladimir Vasiliev, anybody heard of him.
Enjoy. http://www.russianmartialart.com/
Systema, also known as the System, is an internal Russian martial art. It can be considered the super combative and more realistic version of MA's like Tai Chi, Ba Gua, Aikido, etc. The training builds internal energy, rather then physical strength. Systema is also perhaps the least structured martial art out of all other MA's. When doing a drill, you are not told to use specific techniques (like in JKD, i.e., jab, cross, hook, cross striking drill), instead you are givin specific drills and find out what works best. Systema also greatly builds total body sensitivity. You always try to use your opponents energy, movement and general flow against him, and not turn the fight into a physical power vs. physical power conflict. It is also a combination of both striking, grappling, stand up, and ground fighting. Systema has a lot of amazing concepts. And it really helped supliment my JKD training.
Btw, JKD-Swordfish, yes I have heard of Vladimir, he taught me, lol. Amazing teachner.
This message has been edited by Masamune_77 on Jan 1, 2004 6:08 PM
Thanks Swordfish!!!!!
I found a systema school in Paris gotta check it soon and see how they train!!!
I hope Jowan will post his thoughts and feeling about systema.
Regards
Edd
No offense but i looked in the download page of the site and viewed the clips. Hey if someone would attack me like that with a knife, even without MA training I'll could stop the attacker. But that maybe just for demonstration purpose, and I don't know anything about it so I can't say anything.
It looks a lot like Aikido, is there a heavy influence??
I have to agree with Aruden on both counts. I must admit I am quite disappointed as I heared quite good things. Not saying it is particularly bad, but nothing outstanding either.
I would not agree with the other guy who thinks that Systema is the most realistic out of the list he gave. It does look like aikido they are doing and I suspect because it is a new art that it is influenced by this or at least ju jit su.
Maybe it is just the guy in this footage, but he did look like he had something up his arse as he was quite rigid in his posture. Non of the fluidity I was expecting from all the hype.
There were bits where the guy was blocking in places where there was no attack, hmmm. That is not what I call good instinct. But hey I am sure there are some better examples of systema out there.
Edd, i haven't seen the clips you are tlaking about, but if they seem slow or prerehearsed, it's because systema uses something called third speed, where you start off using very slow moves, just to get your body accustomed. i dont think the emphasis is on speed or power, but on timing, judgement, distance, co-ordination, etc. if u look at some of the people who are good at systema, thye are hardely athletes!
i haven't got beyond third speed yet, but im pretty sure that when you progress and when tow people are of equal skill at a certain speed, the tempo is increased.
i found that using more speed than is nessasary makes you over tense, and it makes you miss target a lot and become more confused even by simple moves from your opponent, if they hit.
i see fighting like this-
traditional martial arts tell you to go faster, more power, but they dont tell you why, as much as systema.
you can constantly progress in the power, but unless you know he ultimate truth of fighting, then not amount of power can make you the best fighter.
systema i see as 'almost' infinite, in the fast that it does use progression in strength and speed, but it is not the main emphasis- the main emphasis from my experience is on what you do, not how hard you do it.
power can progress, but if you know how to diminish power, then it is useless, however strong or fast you are.
systema does need athleticism and these attributes, but they are only needed if someone has as much skill as you, and more strength.
the skill can progress more than the attributes.
though sorry to mention it again (im just impressed), the book dynamic strength by harry wong really is a good workout if you do it all properly, and from now on i shall train skill a hell of a lot more than attributes, because the dynamic strength workout takes less than half an hour, and its a whole body workout.
oh, also on this side topic- i recently discovered that my uncle knew this man who did 100 mile marathons and the like, and one time this man was beaten by this 50 or 60 year old, and the reason he beat him, even at this old age is simple-
the old man said train smart, not hard. and its the truth.
if you train at the level where you feel you can go forever (running wise) and every now and again just raise the tempo slightly, then slightly more (in intervals) constantly returning to the slow pace after you feel only slight fatigue, then you will get as much benefit as running over half the distance at the fast tempo-
this is because if you use the maxim 'little and often' then your body stays at this elevated level, and by exercising at the lower level you are constantly replenishing your body, so by the time you go for another burst of slight speed, your body is only just coming down from the last.
its like interval training, only your body is being perpared for survival without even having to exhaust itself.
train smart, not hard. i just thought that was interesting, it just came into my mind.
hope some of this informs you all, have a good day!
Jowan
Thanks Jowan, very enlightening post!!!!!
Systema is more of an internal system sa I see it.
I'm still gonna check it out, attend a class or ask for a sparring session with one of these guys.
lol. It is a shame you are on the other side of the atlantic Jowan, I honestly think you and I have a lot in common on the mental side of things. Maybe the guy in the clip was just not very good. But I whole heartedly agree with the concept of training slowly as you say.
It is however not limited to systema. This type of training does exist in Kung Fu as well. Particularly in Tai Chi.
Even in so called hard forms of Kung Fu this is an important part of training. Your example of traditional MA getting you to do things fast is really an example of bad teaching. It is more of an ego thing than anything else as to why people do things quick.
Doing a technique slowly helps you get to the heart of what you are trying to do. Anyway good post hope to hear from you soon.
P.S do you ever go to the chat room? If so what time? would be interested to chat.
To each his own, internal and external training are both effective. Systema isn't nessessarily better then JKD, just like JKD isn't nessessarily better then Systema. It's really up to the person to find out what works better for him/her. I favour JKD over Systema, and I know others that have taken both arts who think favour JKD as well. I also know people who have taken both arts and favour Systema.
A lot of techniques demonstrated in Systema are un-realistic, it is VERY defensive, and it isn't as direct as Jeet Kune Do. Thats why I favour JKD.
This message has been edited by Masamune_77 on Jan 2, 2004 6:29 PM
I go in the chat room sometimes, but usually theres no-one there-
i dont have long im just off to buy a 150 liter aquarium!
YAY!!!
Masasume, i think thats your name, you make a difference between ssytema and jeet kune do-
the way i see it jeet kune do has no differences ot everything. sure a formulated way like systema is different fro this or that, and i suppose to a certain extent jeet kune do is a set pattern, but when it comes down to it- in fighting there is no pattern, there is only a mental pattern of what to do. our minds work in binary almost, sending signals at intervals to our muscles and through our brains- but is fighting like that? no, fighting is a FLOW of movements that are interconnected. having a mind that can only function in the yes/no signal way is how humans function, and i don't know if we could ever escape that (i hink zen is an escape), but in the end it's all a flow, we can't define it by calling it jkd or systema.
ive probably said this before, but trying to define something is like turning on a light to get a better look at the dark. so just understand the flow. you can see the flow when your right side or whatever the analytical side of your brain is, is turned off, like in sleep or just before sleep, thats the creative flow that is life. attain that in fighting, flow into a kick when you want to, don't wait till your opponent's half way or a quarter way through his action- because there is no half, there is no quarter.
Jowan
P.S. yeah Ajax we do seem like minded, i would like to chat to you, Edd, or whoever wants to chat in the chat room whenever. just name a time in relation to this forum's clock, and i'll try to be there (as long as it aint 5am lol)
well the time at the moment is about 11.45pm here in england and the clock on th forum is 6.45pm so i do not know the difference in time where you are. Approx 5 hours difference for me from clock pick a time i will try to make it of course no point if it is during the day as i am at work.
hope to catch you at the chat room.
Jack
Question everything, Know nothing.
This message has been edited by kjax on Jan 7, 2004 7:02 PM
No difference between JKD and Systema!? I'm talking literally, no philosophically. Let's see, there's the way it's trained (Systema is mainly internal, JKD is mainly external), the techniques (i.e. there are no wave punch's in JKD, there are no JKD punches in Systema), JKD has structure and a foundation, Systema is possibly the least structured martial art ever made, Systema fights from any position, JKD usually fights from a guard (hands up, lead established, bent knee's, etc.). You don't call this difference?
There's nothing new under the sun.....except in the martial arts world. New "styles" are being developed in secrecy all the time as "new" developments are found..
Flavor of the month? Definitely.
Wait until NEXT month until the NEW style comes out....it's going to leave everything else in the DUST!
I have one thing to say: DON'T TALK SH!T UNLESS YOU'VE PHYSICALLY EXPERIENCED IT!!!! I hate these closed-minded morons that bash an art after watching a couple of video clips. I also hate the closed-minded morons who think that "alive" training is the ONLY way to train effecively. Mike, go take Systema for a month before you start running your mouth, if you still don't like it then at least you have experience with it to back up what you say. Or better yet, go challenge someone like Vladimir Vasiliev or Mikhail Ryobko to a fight and see if you can detect the exact moment your head gets removed from the rest of your body.
Hey Masame I thought you were against this challenging buisness. Lol. Does seem to come in handy when people run there mouth aye? lol. Put up or shut up as the old saying goes.
MERRELL BROTHERS RUSSIAN MARTIAL ART SYMPOSIUM AT GMAU HEADQUARTERS-
1. Date: Saturday, January 24
First Session: 9am - 12 noon = Russian Martial Art (evasive maneuvers, hand trapping, power striking, etc.)
Second Session: 1pm - 4pm = Combat Weapons (knife and shovel)
2. ***Cost: NO FEES/REGISTRATION COSTS. We will be taking up an offering to provide "seed money" for equipment and gear for the new GMAU dojo
Rick Merrell will be starting at his church.
3. Participants: Open to all adult students / all ranks 15 and up.
4. Location: Symposium will be held at the Gospel Martial Arts Union (GMAU) Headquarters in Indianapolis, Indiana. The GMAU HQ is located in 16,000 sq. ft. of the Eastgate Consumer Mall, 7150 East Washington Street, Indianapolis, IN 46219. Enter the mall at the "D" south entrance.
God! Do you think "alive" training is the ONLY way to train!? It's called INTERNAL TRAINING! I-N-T-E-R-N-A-L! And if you don't believe in it then its your loss. Besides Systema training gets VERY alive at more advanced levels.
Internal?? Like, internal as in, some sort of mystical hippie "chi" stuff that cannot be proven by modern science and, involves "faith" in it's powers? THAT sort of internal?
Internal like in "Trancers" where we can just sit across the room from each other and destroy from afar? Or, internal like chakras and all that OTHER bull****?
From, my experience in the RMA of systema, which is somewhat limited, I've had several classes and I own most of the videos. I can say this with confidence. The majority of the guys that I have known that make systema work for them, have backgrounds in other martial arts like Kali/Escrima/JKD/Karate/Kenpo.
What I see is them not abandoning their core martial art but by allowing the "relaxed" movements and the way their bodies roll and absorb impacts but from that point, I was told to apply your current or more suitable art that you study to emphasise your attack.
When bruce lee says, that: " I dont hit, it hits by itself" little synaposis In systema your taught to utilize this same type of method. Your power comes from the relaxed positions where your arms are resting. And you hit your target with etreme force rather than just a straight impact. When you attack the body w/ a raking movement or a slapping movement your employing more energy and power. Our bodies are greater % made up of water. So it is designed to take impacts on a straight line course. However what happens when you strike it at an Angle ie. Uppercut, cross body, 45degree angles? You then get greater results and chances to KO or take your opponents balance, or attention in another direction to deal with the attack in another sense. RMA plays with these ideas and principles. Of course it starts off slow because they want the natural reflexes of bodies movements, then as you progress in the art and it gets more "ALIVE" as some of you call it, you've developed this sensation and know how to manipulate the attackers body movement, foot placement, balance, and by understanding his natural movements when he is hit by those undetirmined reflexes you learn to use them to your advantage. RMA is no different than many other martial arts I have experienced really. It just has a more interesting approach that explains things directly and simply more understandably and earlier than what I've seen it in other arts. I have found that those who do FMA=filipino arts, or a free flowing art like Tai Chi, or soft style have a greater understanding of Systema. Those that come from hard styles, more direct styles or those that move on linear movements have a more difficult time adjusting to the movements and relaxation Systema tries to instill. ITS NOT a martial art that everyone can appreciate. Its very effective if trained and trained correctly. but like anything else you have to be willing to accept its training or its not going to benifit you. Every martial art has its positiveness and purpose but at the same time, they all also have a negative or disfunctional purpose as well. NO ART IS PURE no fighting style is pure and none of them are gauranteed to make you this extreme fighter. Why someone enjoys and wants to experience other fighting styles is because thier experimenting with what works best for them much like the reason most of you found JKD, but the truth is JKD is not going to guarantee you a win all the time in a fight. So most of the arguments I see here are more lack of understanding or because your not open to any other way of training rather then what you do. WHICH is the way I look at it Too each his own. Your own your own path of self discovery not mine, or your buddies.
Has anyone ever noticed how the only people that bash Systema are the ones who have never tried it and judge it from a couple of videos they saw on the net? Anyone who has tried it speaks good things of it.
I think that many people are just afraid to admit that something that looks like a play time scenerio to them from video clips cannot possibly work. I also feel that many of them who have not experienced systema for themselves and continue to bash it or not agree with what they see or hear will unfortunatly never experience it or go out of their way to try to either. I say that is thier choice. However it is wrong to set back and judge someone on their choice of chosen path to study even if it differs from your opinion. How would many JKD'ers defend their claim that JKD is the best martial art/philosophy or way to defend themselves? If JKD was meant to work 100% of the time for everyone thier would be JKD schools on every corner of the land. The fact is that it does not support that claim. Nor does Systema, TKD, Karate, BJJ, Boxing ie any art. Its your own personal
opinion and your own personal path that you choose to take for what ever reason.
I hope we can all learn from one another and no longer engage in this "he said she said" game of nonsense
Your welcome 