Hey, over last few week's I've been pondering this thought, what makes a martial art ?

Bruce Lee never received any major rank, never really competed, didn't even fight a bull, he did maybe a handful of public appreances, made a set of drills, no different than some aerobic class like Tae Bo, yet tae bo isnt a martial art!. Everyone sez there's nothing much more in philosophy than punching and scientific theories, that werent developed by a certified physics / scientist. Tyson won more pro fights...should he make Ty Son Do ?

I dont get it, I mean ..I do get what i've learned as a result of studying what i have of / from ( books videos, schools, teachers/friends ) Bruce Lee, but how the hell did JKD become a martial art ? I guess anyone can make a martial art under this concept no ?

What makes JKD a viable martial art ? It doesnt even have a form, or a way, all things from Bruce Lee's notes werent even his own writings, so there's not many books / notes I can say are from bruce lee either, just some stuff he read....I dont get it ?

and for that matter what makes any martial art a recognized art ?

We are wondering so much about teachers and their credentials, yet the founder has no complete credentials himself other than some movies and some endorsements by stars, some college, great exhibitions, secret fights, and writing alot of notes.

Honestly, someone please explain this to me ?

I am questioning if what i learned from Bruce Lee is martial arts at all, I think i learned something else than what you guys describe and re-examining / re evaluating everything i've understood to be what you guys call "jkd".

Ques Tion Do

Thanks

That is an excellent, well worded topic and an incredible question to ask. You asked it correctly and intellegently.

I hope that people respond to is without trolling. It is the first one that has interested me in a long time.

I actually want to think about it a day or two before I try to answer.

pressureguy

WOW!

Yes, it is an excellent question.

Upon, my pondering of this question I began doing some digging within my library of not so many books but I have found a few things that may help. But it is not to be looked at as a complete answer because as I think about it, the answer your looking for I think lies deeper within the intentions of fighting rather than a martial art itslef.

Page 7 of the Tao of JKD: To obtain enlightenment in martial arts means the extinction of everything which obscures the true knowledge, the real life. At the same time, it implies boundless expansion and indeed, emphasis should fall not on the cotivation of the particular deptpartment which meres into the totality, but rather on the totality that enters and unites that particular department.

Now too me: A martial art has meaning, a philosophy an understanding of what makes it work rather than just putting it to work. To study something so in depth to understand it inside and out to scientifically strip or disect a way of fighting and rebuilding it to your specs and to put a meaning behind why this or that does the thing it does. What makes you function or react in certain situations is what a martial art is about.

I heard a saying once and maybe this will help:

"Martial Arts without Philosophy is nothing more than mere street fighting". So what Bruce Lee developed whether or not it was his own philosophy or not there was meaning behind his powerful movements, and he stript and disected what he already had to develope it to work for him, and put philosophy behind it, there fore making it an ART form.

What Mike Tyson does is merely Boxing with power and precision, if he was to put down on paper what makes his technique work for him and why it works for him the way it does, including body positioning and control of distance, timing, rythm, etc.. so on and so on.....and began to share this with others and put a philosphical essence or curve on it....hed have an art of boxing he could call his own. But without that. What he has is just his own expression of fighting. Nothing more than a mere fighting style then a martial art.

I hope im not way off of what your looking for here its early and you made me rack my brain this early...so I may be way off of what your looking for.....lol....

Take care
as I think on this thruought the day I may come back and put other thought into it.

thanks
Cory
IMAA

"Hey, over last few week's I've been pondering this thought, what makes a martial art ?"

Any type of fighting system with a theory and philosophy behind it. The art will be based on the founder's compilation of preferances, personal beliefs, strategies, education, environment, prejudices, previous experience, and desire to make his or her thoughts and personalized expression known to the public. It should prove it's worth through first theory, then application.

"Bruce Lee never received any major rank, never really competed, didn't even fight a bull, he did maybe a handful of public appreances, made a set of drills, no different than some aerobic class like Tae Bo, yet tae bo isnt a martial art!. Everyone sez there's nothing much more in philosophy than punching and scientific theories, that werent developed by a certified physics / scientist. Tyson won more pro fights...should he make Ty Son Do ?"

That's right. Bruce Lee didn't have any special rank or official representation. That's why I am amazed why people on this board who like and follow Bruce Lee put more stock into where a person trained, if it's ojkd or jkdc, and they will follow anybody that puts the word "sifu" before their name and they may have never met the guy and they treat his or her opinion like gold while the opinions of others gets taken as nothing more than a cursory glance, rather than an individual's level of skill and understanding. That makes me fume because I knew and still know a ton of students in regular schools that can outclass and win a debate over their teachers in a given subject. It happens all the time and even in the martial arts, a student outsmarting a teacher in a conversation or beating them in a physical fight happens more than people give it credit for. Bruce Lee said "only in the martial arts can the teacher get away with being fat and out of shape because they can bluff their way with their mouth and they know no one will challenge them". And Mike Tyson is just a powerful boxer with not even a 10th of the intelligence that Bruce Lee had. Tae Bo is meant to be an aerobic exercise mimicking martial arts moves to get in shape. Boxing is meant to be a sport, and Jeet Kune Do is meant to be a real martial art. They are what they are and if Tyson came out with a martial art called Ty son kwon do, he would get ridiculed. All he knows is how to punch and move around. He couldn't fix his car, open a bag of skittles, or learn words from a second language if he tried.


"I dont get it, I mean ..I do get what i've learned as a result of studying what i have of / from ( books videos, schools, teachers/friends ) Bruce Lee, but how the hell did JKD become a martial art ? I guess anyone can make a martial art under this concept no ?
What makes JKD a viable martial art ? It doesnt even have a form, or a way, all things from Bruce Lee's notes werent even his own writings, so there's not many books / notes I can say are from bruce lee either, just some stuff he read....I dont get it ?"

JKD became a martial art because Bruce Lee wanted to have something tangeable that he could call his own personal experience and analyzation. When people seen that Bruce Lee moved like lightning and didn't sacrifice power in the process, not to mention he wasn't exactly losing fights using his method, they sought him out to train and learn his method hoping his success could also become theirs as well. JKD is a viable art because it makes practical sense and every move can be backed up with logic. With spiritual this or chi that, there will be questioning and doubt and if one bad seed comes by to represent that art, the whole art gets painted with the same brush. It takes more time and advanced training to master a spiritual or internal martial art. JKD is supposed to be simple, direct, and efficient. Most people cannot relate or understand to higher levels of being so therefore they want something that will be effective that will work right away. It's the American attitude.....cell phones, fast cars, DVD players, McDonald's, etc. Every distraction you can think of. JKD represents the ultimate of what a physical body can do following the laws of physics.
Who told you that none of Bruce Lee's notes are his own? That is not true as there are countless things that originated with his own thoughts and ideas out in print. You're right, JKD doesn't have a form or a way. That's why I argue with people on here about sticking to an agenda that was the ideal back in the 60's. If you have a way, there lies the limitation. People are saying that is or that isn't JKD if you do this or don't do this. That is cementing a specific outline and plan for JKD. JKD is a composite of Bruce Lee's own experiences and research. He would want you to do your own homework and find your own way. The only thing JKD can do for people is help them to explore themselves.


"and for that matter what makes any martial art a recognized art ?"

LOL Well first if you want to create a martial art, it has to have something about it to make it stand out from the other ones. It has to be effective for both you and others. It has to makes sense in theory and in application. And when all that is done, you need proper marketing skills to sell your product. No offense but even though Bruce was as good as he was, he would not have gotten anywhere close in popularity had it not been a combination of the right time (the 60's where martial arts were very new to the american public), the right place (Ed Parker's 1964 tournament), and the right vehicle (tv and movie star).

"We are wondering so much about teachers and their credentials, yet the founder has no complete credentials himself other than some movies and some endorsements by stars, some college, great exhibitions, secret fights, and writing alot of notes."

Again, the same thing. I can't understand why just cause someone puts the word "sifu" in front of their name, why he should be looked at like a god. There are good teachers and bad ones. They all have the word sifu in front of their name. I used to take ninjutsu from a 3rd dan black belt sensei. I don't take the class anymore cause the teacher kicked me out. We were demonstrating choke holds and I had just about had it with things that didn't work. I applied the choke on everyone the way it would be done for real and no one could get out of it. The teacher offered himself to try and escape it as well and I choked him out too. The teacher lost face in front of his class and I was called up at home a few days later and not asked to return. He told me "I'm not a good enough ninja teacher for you. You should find a better one or a JKD teacher since that seems where your heart and path lie." In explaining this I am not saying I am a bad ass and that I can beat up teachers. I am saying that look at the indiviudal not at the title. If you have doubts about someone' s ability, go meet that person, train with him, spar him. Half the people on this site has never met the other people on here and the assume a lot of thing going by conversations and maybe a pic alone. If you seen Dan Inosanto and Lamar Davis for the first time and dind't know who they were, you wouldn't think martial arts instructor. You might think hardware store owner or pizza delivery guys cause they look like average people. (no offense Lamar )Everything else about Bruce Lee that you mentioned in that paragrah is true. The reason behind the mystique of the Bruce Lee persona is yes he was the best at what he did and he was also martketed in the right way by people that knew what they were doing.


"honestly, someone please explain this to me ?
I am questioning if what i learned from Bruce Lee is martial arts at all, I think i learned something else than what you guys describe and re-examining / re evaluating everything i've understood to be what you guys call "jkd"."

You are learning what people have turned into another martial art style. You are learning a freeze-captured frame in a continuing movie that was called an evolution of someone's life. That freeze captured frame is taught and believed by many to be the truth of what the system is. Almost like if someone took one moment in your life....lets say high school. They pointed to your high school pic and said "that's what you look like", totally ignoring what you looked like at the age of 5 and the age you are at now. They take your high school grades and your knowledge "up to that point" as the ultimate way of perceiving your depth of intelligence. They take the way you dressed, etc....that is what they are doing to Bruce Lee. Bruce Lee was ALWAYS changing and evolving. Therefore JKD as we know it had no one way that lasted for too long. He wanted it to be like water and it was. If he wanted JKD to be taught the way it is shown from an original jkd practitioner's point of view, he would have just stayed with jun fan gung fu because that is what that particular art was meant for. JKD was meant to be tool to do your own problem solving. It was meant to be a guide for you to think for yourself. It is a martial art in that you are learning a system, a way, and approach of fighting. There is a philosophy to it. But the mistake people make with it is they treat it like another classical art by how they protect it. You can grow within the system but you can't grow out of it. You can get good at what the confining system has to offer (Specific techniques, etc.) but you can't apply what you learned to other arts and things with the principles without being looked upon as not knowing what you are doing or preserving his art they he wanted it to be preserved. Who the hell ever said Bruce Lee wanted JKD to be preserved to begin with? He said JKD was meant to be a tool. It's like a boat you use to get across the water and when you are on the other side, you discard it. He didn't think it was anything special out of the ordinary. He didn't want to have McDojo's, Inosanto didn't want to intially teach JKD but Bruce's other students (yes the ones that everyone calls his original students outside of Hartsell and the ones that accused Inosanto of not teaching it the way Bruce did) pressured Inosanto to continue teaching the art. If they had all the answers and Dan didn't, they should have never went to Dan to continue their training. Oh wait, that would mean they would never have gotten certified and have a reason to accuse Dan of watering or changing the system. JKD was SUPPOSED to change. That's what made it unique to everyone. If it didn't, it was just another classical martial art. End of story.

Ques Tion Do

Thanks

Cory, yes I like how u explained that - I can accept from the way everyone on this board looks at it, that JKD is a fighting style, but not a martial art. Altho some can technically argue that the very translation of Martial Art means = Fighting style, and under my own understanding A martial Art is a fighting style, but a fighting style is not necessarily a martial art, they difference is in the key word Art.
A stylist is not an artist, but an artist can be a stylist. To ellaborate in an effort to avoid a symantec debate, One person knows technique, another knows technique and expresses his individuality with emotional content.
Technician vs Artist.

Lenny - I agree with you, but its sort of leaving me disillusioned to hear so many people not acknowledge a philosophical side, and disregard any philosophical sides to JKD. So in other words to me, the WHOLE art of JKD died with Bruce, and what we are left with is Just a fighting style, which some call ojkd and jkdc,
( in 60's he punched like this, in new millenium people fight like this and we guess he would have adjusted like this )

Most new MA are created by teachers with high rank in more than one art, but in the old days styles were created on the battle field. That was before most of them became watered down and turned into a sport. The truth in combat exsisted way before what we know as JKD exsisted in waring times and before guns were created. Lenny I would have liked to watch you choke out your ninjitsu sensi LOL.

For me MA is at a basic level, a process of learning combatitive techniques but with a distinct phylosophy in its approach. The expansion and development of the mind as a whole is an important part of this art.

MA is not merely combat, but has a arts side to it as well. By this I do not mean flowery entertaining movement, but both mental and physical creativity.

You do not need a certificate from anyone to be an MA. This is a new concept. Indeed in the past some schools would brand tattoo's onto their diciples etc, but means nothing as far as Art is concerned.

I think the question you pose also belies a greater question in our goal as a martial artist. Is this real? what is real? What is the truth in MA? These questions require no official commendations, but a keen mind.

Question everything, Know nothing.

JKD I do not believe is a martial arts. Although Bruce teaches his students certain techniuqes, they are only a demonstration of a concept.

People are always saying how in JKD you can combine boxing with kungfu, jujitsu etc but I dont think that was the intention. JKD I feel is the natural human fighting style kinda like how a parry dog would know how to defend against a cobra.

If you put two fairly intelligent men together and forced them to fight over and over eventually the natural fighting style will come about. Bruce taught his concepts to shorten your journey to finding the natural human fighting style.

I think in the end even mentioning that you are going from one style to another to display the flow and free mind of JKD is actually all wrong.
There is really no style just movement.

A punch is a punch either straight in a circular motion but it starts out from one original point and has a final distant from that original point. I think these are the kind of concepts you have to understand not the training of one style or another but just understanding natural human behavior and distance of one body part to another.

"If your hand is here then it cant be there" is probably the grandest of concepts.

Seeing other styles in action is basically seeing a fight with people trying different strategy but in the end if they move one way then you know where the other movements have to come from. It is just the study of human behavior and what is physically possible. The understanding of all possible movements from one point to another for every single body part on the body, I think is the key to mastering natural human fighting.

There is no style no martial arts just concepts to shortcut your journey to understanding how to fight in the best humanly possible way.

I do not know what you have learnt from reading and watching jkd material but it has probably guided you closer to a natural fighting style you would have found out on your own through years and years of fighting experience.

This thread is a year old man. Let it go.