My girlfriend and I just moved into a basement suit a couple of months ago. It was a big move from the major city to a smaller city outside, the reason why we decided to do this is because rent is cheaper and I could go to school. Anyways, my girlfriend and I are friendly people, so we introduced ourselves to the people living upstairs and they gave us the cold shoulder right off the bat. It’s a long story but the mother living upstairs had a daughter living in the basement before us and she moved out due to a break up with her boyfriend that she was living with. Her Uncle (He lives upstairs too) wanted to take the basement over and pay half the rent we pay, but the landlord denied the offer. So, my girlfriend and I took the place. Now, my girlfriend and I figure that the “Uncle” upstairs wants us to move out, so he blares his disco muzac and is up at 6 Am every Saturday & Sunday morning watching CNN news and Gospel T.V. at full volume. I told the Landlord about noise levels at 6-7Am in the morning on weekends and of course, the slime ball upstairs denied everything. He said, “If they want to complain about the noise, they could just come upstairs and ask us to turn it down”... So, today, I went upstairs and calmly and politely asked the man to turn down his T.V. and he said it’s at “Normal volume”, and I asked him to come down stairs and listen to how loud it is downstairs, he refused and I said that he wouldn’t like it if I blared my music at 5am in the morning and he replied with, “Go ahead, I’ll tell the landlord”. I was so upset and I just left. The Grandmother (Also lives upstairs) spoke to her son (“Uncle”) after I left and they turned down the T.V., but 30 minutes later, the volume was turned up again.
My mom says it’s a cultural thing, the people upstairs are Philippino, and fairly well off, in their culture, we are literally underneath them and so we are nothing to them. I think my mother is correct, but I think I’m agreeing because I’m angry.
This “Uncle” is really getting under my skin, if you saw him, you would know that he is a real slime ball. He’s in his late 30’s, lives with his Mother still, he drives a fast car and he has a mustache and his wardrobe mainly consists of “woman beater” muscle shirts.
So, what would you do in this situation?
I’m starting to lose my cool, I have a bad temper, I’m kind of like Adam Sandler's character in “Anger Management”. Everything builds inside me until one day I lose it and I start freaking out and if I start yelling at the “Uncle”, I know his reaction will be to yell back and if that happens, I know I will lose it and I would escalate and start throwing punches. I know fighting isn’t the answer, but If I don’t find a resolution to this, things may get ugly... I would'nt want to introduce my Kali stick to his car.
Anyways, that was a small peak into my real life.
Thanks for any suggestions you may have on this situation.
I would probably see if you can get the landlord to PHYSICALLY come over when the racket is going on. Just call him/her up and say, "It's happening again, and it's happening RIGHT NOW! Please come over so you can see just how disrupting this is to our lives."
Option 2 is you can call the cops on Uncle Dipsh!t.
Option 3 is you can beat this guy's ass with a bar of soap wrapped in a sock.
Option 4 is you can make a gesture of friendship and offer to take him to a movie... say, THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST?!? Once the movie starts, leave him alone in the theater to be mind-raped by this turd of a film.
I'm warning everyone I can NOT to go see The Passion.
Mike Descado stated: " ... February 28 2004, 4:17 PM
I would probably see if you can get the landlord to PHYSICALLY come over when the racket is going on. Just call him/her up and say, "It's happening again, and it's happening RIGHT NOW! Please come over so you can see just how disrupting this is to our lives."
Option 2 is you can call the cops on Uncle Dipsh!t.
Option 3 is you can beat this guy's ass with a bar of soap wrapped in a sock.
Option 4 is you can make a gesture of friendship and offer to take him to a movie... say, THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST?!? Once the movie starts, leave him alone in the theater to be mind-raped by this turd of a film.
I'm warning everyone I can NOT to go see The Passion."
Mike, I have to respectfully disagree. I thought the movie was greatly portrayed and expressed realistically. Although religion is not the topic of this forum, as a Christian I wanted to defend this movie and its meaning. There are so many people finding Jesus for the first time after viewing this movie, and to me that is a great feat. As I watched it yesterday with my Church, at the end of the movie Pastor Gregg asked if anyone wanted to recieve Christ as thier personal savior. About a half a dozen or so people came to know christ. TO me that is an awesome motivator as well as Witness to Christ.
I respect your views Mike and to each his own beliefs and values but please don't stop others from coming to Christ.
Well, in my opinion, fighting with the guy or calling the cops is only gonna escalate the situation. And I wouldn't want my girlfriend in the middle of something like that. It certainly won't stop him from intentionally trying to disturb you, in fact it will probably make it 10 times worse. As soon as the cops leave, guess what he's gonna do ? It'll just become a game to him.
I would keep my options reserved to the landlord, since he is the only one who carries real weight against your neighbor. The suggestion about inviting him over to hear it for himself is a good one, as long as the neighbor doesn't see him coming and turn it down.
If the landlord won't help you or refuses to talk to your neighbor, I would take a look at your lease agreement and remind your landlord that if conditions are unlivable you will move out. I would guess that he won't want to lose you as a tenant and will take steps to resolve the situation.
Simple as that.
When I was getting hustled by a Scottish pool player, I got my friend(who was actually with his partner!) to come on to him.
His game seriously went down the pan, and he kept repeating "I like GIRLS, right?", and drinking his beer obsessively.
Just knock on 'Uncle' guy's door wearing a dressing gown, agree with everything he says, show a little nipple now and again,and then keep asking if you can come in for a drink.
Of course, what with the moustache, he could ACTUALLY be gay, but what the hell, it's an option!
As a backup plan, you could inform him that you will be getting in touch with his soliciter,(if it's that serious), but coming on to him will be much more fun.
Just think about his facial expression as you pass him in the hall, especially if to him, you are a gay martial artist!
Double the fear! Double the fun!
P.S. You will have to convince him that your girlfriend is your sister or something, or you won't pull it off.
Just my opinion, though.
This message has been edited by jakep on Feb 29, 2004 5:41 PM
Jake, LoL that is the funniest $hit Ive heard in a long time. The thing is, my girlfriend and I think he IS gay, funny you mention that. I don't think I would want to make a pass at that dude cause he might get all hot and bothered and I'll come home with him sitting on the couch in the Garage, f*cking naked! That would be gross. haha! =-)
About inviting the landlord over to listen to the noise level, the "Uncle" is doing this at like 6am-7am on weekends and I don't think the landlord would want to come over that early. My girl talked to the landlord today and he talked to Uncle F*ucker. Hopefully he will get the picture and stop being a prick, but I don't think he will stop. He said to me, "If you don't like it, then move"... I can't move, I wont move and let him win.
I hate Drama, I'd rather just kick his ass and intimidate him. But, I don't wanna go to jail over this jerk.
I didn't see your post until just now, but allow me to reply. First off, you seem like a really nice guy, so I hope you don't get too offended:
"Mike, I have to respectfully disagree. I thought the movie was greatly portrayed and expressed realistically."
In what way was it expressed realistically? There are historical inaccuracies and more than one blatant falsehood.
"Although religion is not the topic of this forum, as a Christian I wanted to defend this movie and its meaning."
There was no "meaning" in The Passion of The Christ. It's just a guy getting the crap beat outta him for two hours. NONE of Jesus' lessons were in there.
"There are so many people finding Jesus for the first time after viewing this movie, and to me that is a great feat."
To me this is an absolutely terrifying feat, and speaks volumes about the mindset of people of faith. The fact that a MOVIE can bring somebody over to a certain religion is a testament to how easily led they are.
"As I watched it yesterday with my Church, at the end of the movie Pastor Gregg asked if anyone wanted to receive Christ as their personal savior. About a half a dozen or so people came to know Christ. TO me that is an awesome motivator as well as Witness to Christ."
Again, people are so easily led. Horrifying.
"I respect your views Mike and to each his own beliefs and values but please don't stop others from coming to Christ."
You SHOULD respect my views, Cory, because they're evidence based, not faith based. And as far as me trying to stop people from coming to Christ, I damn well will until my dying day! Religion is the greatest evil mankind has ever thrust upon itself. Every war ever fought was either directly or indirectly waged over differences in religious belief. You see, when you base your life on mythology, anything is possible, any thus, anything is justified.
Did you actually read my review? Or did you just jump to the defense of the movie before knowing what my actual position was?
Crusades
1000 year war
Hitler/Holocost
Stallin
Saddam
Native Americans
Anything Britian ever started. The Royal family acting on behalf of God.
Just to name a few.....
Well that should covers a quite a few million deaths and untold, unaccountable suffering.
90% of humans believe in (a) God. Attached to their interpretation of God are ideologies, which are the basis and foundation for which they justify their actions.
This message has been edited by CHOZINJUAN on Mar 2, 2004 11:00 AM
You do realize that Stalin (spelled with ONE "l", not two) was an aethiest don't you? Also Saddam was a secularist. Yes he tried to tap into religous fundamentalism when all of his other support had erroded, but most of his regime was spent repressing religion rather than tapping into it.
Regards,
John M. Drake
This message has been edited by jdrake on Mar 2, 2004 12:06 PM
I have read your review, though I haven't seen the movie.
Anyway, the greatest lesson of Christianity, being able to forgive people that are beating the crap out of you even while they are doing it, is beared out in the cruxifician. It's this lesson that Ghandi used in India and King used in America. There's no way that protestors in Birmingham could have endured dogs, fire houses, ect without faith in the idea that enduring suffering with dignity can bring about change.
But perhaps when you say "none of the lessons" you mean none of the direct teachings like the Sermon on the Mount? From what I heard in another review that was in there as "flashback", although that reviewer, like yourself, felt there was too much focus on the agony and not enough on such lessons. One more question. Did the movie include the Last Supper? Again there is a great lesson in that story.
As for people being "moved" by a violent movie, I was "moved" by "Saving Private Ryan" to a deeper understanding of the sacrafices made in WWII. Many people were moved by Schindler's list. Of course I do recall a group of inner city kids that were kicked out of a showing of Schindler's list for laughing at the violence that they felt was "unrealistic". It caused a big stink, but Steven Speilberg was quite reconciling when he met with them telling them "Don't worry. I got in trouble for going to sleep in Ben Hur."
Regards,
John M. Drake
This message has been edited by jdrake on Mar 2, 2004 12:04 PM
I am firmly convinced that you are not human. Instead you are either a walking encyclopedia or a cyborg! Jokes!!
Somehow, to me religion and politics are intertwined. So if we have a Stalin/Communist/Atheist comitting 20 million murders vs. Hitler/Nazi/Christian good for 6 more...or the Europeans who escaped religious persecution and fled to America only to wage genocide for their cause makes no difference to me. It is the difference in opinion about religion/polotics that is a major cause of the death and suffering.
Matt
This message has been edited by CHOZINJUAN on Mar 2, 2004 2:12 PM
John, you do realize that "cruxifician" is actually spelled crucifixion. LOL
Phases, this is what you do as far as your neighbor is concerned:
Go to the garden center in your local department store and buy the longest garden hose you can afford. Wait until evening where you know he isn't going to go anywhere for the rest of the night. Take the hose and run it down the stairs, out of your apartment up to your car. Start your car (make sure you have a full tank). Attatch the hose with some duct tape to your tail pipe. Take the other end of the hose and run it up to your "uncle's" door. Make a type of funnel out of some more duct tape and attatch it to the other end of the hose and slide that end underneath his door just barely where he can't see it sticking out. Go get some towels and blankets and block any of the remaining air underneath the rest of the door. Get some 2 ton E poxy glue and glue his door shut...some glue in the keyhole and some around the frame. Go outside and glue any windows he may have shut as well. Reinforce with duct tape. Find out where his telephone line is outside and cut it. Wait until the morning. No hassles, no confrontations, just quick, efficient, and smooth results with no problems.
Matt: Ok, if your point is "people who fanatically believe in an idea can be dangerous" then I agree with you. Of course I would also content that it took almost fanatical belief in an idea to storm the beaches of Normandy.
Why not answer your own question, Wasim? You said religion was merely a "tool" to allow people to gain more power. Well, that's true, and exactly my point. Whether it's the Roman Christians battling the Greek Christians SOLELY on the basis of petty denominational differences, or the eleven European crusades into the holy lands to purge the "heathen" Moslems out of Jerusalem, or Hitler galvanizing Nazi Germany under the "religion" of anti-Semitism, (and anti-Semitism IS a religion, just like any other belief that isn't evidence based), or crazy Islamic zealots flying planes into New York buildings, religion is either directly or indirectly responsible for war itself. No other force can lead men to kill one another, or give up their lives, as readily.
Sure religion has been used as a "tool" just as much as it's been the orchestrating circumstance, so what? Does that make it any LESS evil? Does that make the followers of said beliefs any LESS mindless, stupid, and easily led? Nope.
And in case you forgot, Christians in this country are still using their beliefs as an excuse to persecute other groups of people.
It is impossible for a christian to murder anyone. If there are people killing in God's name, they are simply not christians no matter what they say because it clearly states "Do not kill" in the Ten Commandments. If I go buy a tool kit, wrench, hang my jeans where my a$$ crack is showing, put ads in the paper that includes a phone number and a business, and tell everyone I am a plumber, does that make me one? No, it doesn't. If I go say I am a satanist, wear black robes, light candles, and listen to Slayer and say "'praise be to Satan", and go kiss somebody and say I love you (same thing as a christian who kills people and says this is for the better), does that make me a satanist? No, it doesn't. People have been mistaking power hungry murderers for so called "christians" for centuries. I cannot speak for other religions because I am not another religion and I stand by my belief of not judging others especially when I myself am not perfect. I understand a lot of other so-called "christians" also judge others and that is not following the religion correctly. You see anyone can sit in church, anyone can call themselves a christian, anyone can read a Bible, anyone can talk about Jesus, and anyone can certainly kill someone in the name of God. That does not make them a christian. A christian is a life of self-denial. It's a life of giving up a lot of wordly pleasures and materialistic desires. In essence, it's a lot like Buddhism. I know there are countless translations for the Bible and I know there are contradictions in the book, so I am going to stand by the commonality of what Christianity stands for.....it stands for love. When you love someone, you cannot murder them and that's just common sense. There are a lot of weirdos out there that do stupid **** in the name of God. Big deal.....there are countless crazy people that do things for other reasons too. Why should religion take the blame. If there was no religion, people would find something else to hide behind as an excuse to justify their murders and conquests. People have been since the beginning of time....opportunists. They will step on others to get ahead in life. When you have a religion, ok you do have a certain amount of close-mindedness simply because any path you take you are accepting both the benefits and limitations of that particular outlook. All religions have something to offer. Some are better than others. Buddhism for instance has a close kinship with Christianity....both focus on love, forgiveness, self-denial, letting go of the ego and materialism, bettering each other, honor, respect, dignity, and contributing to society instead of taking away from it. I know by saying this I am eliminating many people from this list....the so-called and self-proclaimed christians. The bottom line is this: If you are a christian, the last thing you do is kill. And anyone that kills that calls themselves a christian are only fooling themselves and obviously others. That means the Crusades were not about Christianity (they said it was), the Salem Witch Trials were not about Christianity (they said it was), and above all The Pope is not about Christianity (he and many others believe he is). Jesus was a simple man that had nothing but the clothes on this back. He had trouble finding a place to sleep each night. Jesus said "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven". Guess what? The Pope surrounds himself with gold but then he preaches to give to the poor and give to charity. Do the math. If the Pope wanted to be like Jesus, he would renounce his position, walk away from the Vatican, and become a swami in the Himalyan Mountains. This is closer to Christ. Wayyyyy closer to Christ than what he is doing now. If people want to know what it is to be a christian, they first off accept that there is a God, and Jesus did exist and died for others and that He is the Son of God. Next you treat yourself and others good, you forgive people when they wrong you, you give someone else a coat if you have two and they have none, you help the homeless, you are against suicide in any form, you do not judge others, you are against revenge, you respect your parents, you have morals and dignity, you try to educate others and help them reach their potential in life, and above all else, you love everyone as you love God. You only love God as much as you love the person you least love. Now this is not easy to do and christians are not perfect. They are human beings with flaws, but you give it your all to try your very best. This is why in my opinion there are so few "real" christians in the world. It's not about going to church once a week and being an a$$ the rest of the week. It's about changing yourself to be a better person for every day you live, making a sacrifice. And making a positive difference in the world. But there is no excuse for murder or suicide. Those are deliberate and strictly against anything Jesus stood for. If He was for that, he simply would have set the example by leading a physical revolt against the Romans but He didn't.
This message has been edited by Lenmaster on Mar 4, 2004 12:16 PM
The problem here, Lenny, is that religion is open to interpretation. In your personal "interpretation", people who don't adhere to your particular ideology are not Christians. This is why there are so many different denominations and sects. Your argument is just as stupid as NWFISH's, who constantly talks about "true" martial arts.
Ah, so you think you know what a "true" Christian is, huh? Well, guess what? So does everybody else.
Who's right, and who's wrong?
Not that I read it all, but what your rant basically says to me is that Christianity is good- if only people would get it right. Hey, I agree with you, but nobody gets it right; in fact, nobody can even agree on what IS "right."
So seriously, Len, save it. You're trying to make rational arguments about mythology, which is why it's so easy for me to counter you by simply stating the obvious.
And the underlying message of Jesus' teachings may indeed be love, but that's just one part of a book filled with killing, murder, rape, incest and a host of other atrocities in the name of Jesus' dad. And let's not forget about the book of Revelations, which basically talks about how Captain Love himself is gonna let most of human kind get their beloved asses kicked in the apocalypse to come, (which was SUPPOSED to happen in the apostles' lifetimes. Guess the bible got that one wrong too.).
"The problem here, Lenny, is that religion is open to interpretation. In your personal "interpretation", people who don't adhere to your particular ideology are not Christians."
Religion is open to interpretation so I agree with you there. My personal interpretation is not unique. The issue we were talking about was murdering people in the name of God. You ask any sane, modern Christian today if it's okay to murder people in God's name and they will pretty much say no.
"This is why there are so many different denominations and sects. Your argument is just as stupid as NWFISH's, who constantly talks about "true" martial arts."
There are so many different denominations and sects in Christianity because it is human nature to concentrate on the differences between people instead of the commonality of mankind. If Jesus is the Son of God and God created everyone, spirituality would be more of a concern and issue than dogma. Dogma is man made. Spirituality is not. Dogma seperates man. Spirituality brings man together. Therefore eating meat on Friday or saying 88 Hail Mary's is not a big deal in comparison to forgiving someone for doing you wrong. And don't listen to other people or to even me. If you want to know what a true christian should act like, look at how Christ lived his life. He NEVER took a life in His Father's name. If being a true christian means following Christ's example, then that means not murdering. As far as other denominations, look at how Christ handled other beliefs at his time. He didn't condemn them or kill anyone. He simply preached the simple things in life. It was after he died that people created all these different sects and came up with all these different rules. They don't apply cause they are not important.
"Ah, so you think you know what a "true" Christian is, huh? Well, guess what? So does everybody else.
Who's right, and who's wrong? Not that I read it all, but what your rant basically says to me is that Christianity is good- if only people would get it right. Hey, I agree with you, but nobody gets it right; in fact, nobody can even agree on what IS "right."
Who says nobody gets it right? Have you met every christian on earth? Like anything else, some get it and some don't. Who are the ones that get it? The ones that live it each day of their lives and concentrate more on the core principles and less about the frivilous dogma said earlier. People can't agree on what is right because like I said....people concentrate on differences. The differences are not important. The core attributes are. When everybody understands this, then everyone will "get it" and "agree". By the way, thanks for comparing me to NWFish and telling me that my ideas are stupid. I like you. We've had good conversations in the past with no problems. Don't be an a$$ now and start insulting me. If your argument makes sense and mine doesn't, it will clearly show so the little dig was unecessary.
"So seriously, Len, save it. You're trying to make rational arguments about mythology, which is why it's so easy for me to counter you by simply stating the obvious."
Jesus is not a mythology. There are records of a man with his name, description, walking around during that time, doing those particular deeds, and acting the way it is written down as in the Bible in different cultures including India where they refer to him as Saint Issa. In other words, the missing years of Jesus as known to Biblical scholars. Also the Buddhists, Muslims, and Hindus recognize him as an actual person that did exist.
"And the underlying message of Jesus' teachings may indeed be love, but that's just one part of a book filled with killing, murder, rape, incest and a host of other atrocities in the name of Jesus' dad. And let's not forget about the book of Revelations, which basically talks about how Captain Love himself is gonna let most of human kind get their beloved asses kicked in the apocalypse to come, (which was SUPPOSED to happen in the apostles' lifetimes. Guess the bible got that one wrong too.)."
Well if people had it right from the beginning, they wouldn't need Jesus. They didn't have it right which explains why Jesus had to be born. The other negative actions in Bible stories were a result of power hungry semites that wanted control so they used God's name to justify their actions. Much in the same fashion like David Koresh, or the Heaven's gate cult. As I hope you have seen thus far, God's name is pretty much up for grabs when it comes down to justifying all kinds of negative actions and blood shed by insecure, crazy people that need power and control. Even Hitler said God was on his side. That doesn't represent God. That represents people that want to control others. God doesn't, nor does he need to control anyone. That is where free will comes in. And the only people that need to control others are people that are insecure. The book of Revelations is written by John. John had a dream he thought was a vision. He thinks it will all happen. Whether it will or not, I don't know. Even if you want to believe in the book of Revelations, in the Bible it says "No one knows the time, or place, not even the angels in heaven....only God". So it would be impossible to predict the 2nd coming. The guys in the Bible took a guess. They were wrong. It happens when you guess. There are many things I don't agree with in the Bible. There are many things I do agree with. I do believe the Bible was inspired by God. But no matter how perfect the vessel of where the info originally came from, it is filtering down through man. And anytime you take something originally perfect and put it through something that is not, you will have imperfections. That is just the unforunate thing about humanity.
This message has been edited by Lenmaster on Mar 4, 2004 5:37 PM
OH NO! This is getting too big for me! That info could easily make a book or two.
Just too much to read for me, sorry guys!
And to Mike: I don´t care how you twist my words, You know what I meant: religion is not the biggest evil, the biggest evil ARE PEOPLE!
Now, whatever you type, I will not read this forum again and waste my tíme. No one can change other´s attitudes, just by writing some senseless philosophical crap
Len, you are not arguing effectively; you are merely making excuses for me being right.
Counterpoints:
1. "There are so many different denominations and sects in Christianity because it is human nature to concentrate on the differences between people instead of the commonality of mankind."
No, it's not human nature to be concentrate on the differences between people. That's retarded. It's human nature to be "tribal". Maybe you should study a little behavioral biology before you make asinine comments like this.
2. "If Jesus is the Son of God and God created everyone, spirituality would be more of a concern and issue than dogma. Dogma is man made. Spirituality is not."
That's a big "if", since you're talking about something there's absolutely no evidence for. But let's roll with this, shall we? Dogma and spirituality are both man made, and defined as such in religious texts like the bible. Stop being a pussy about it. There's a "blue print" for every religion there is, and people base their faith on said "blue print", then expanding into their own individual sense of dogma and spirituality.
If there was a God, he'd be the ****tiest God our species ever had the misfortune to come under the dominion of. A perfect, all knowing being wouldn't pass his divine wisdom down to man in such a contradictory and convoluted venue, (I'm talking about the bible here). A perfect, all knowing being would make sure his instructions, will, plan for us, etc. was clear. The bible is anything but clear, and don't come back with any babbling bull**** to the contrary, because you'll just look like a dumbass.
3. "Therefore eating meat on Friday or saying 88 Hail Mary's is not a big deal in comparison to forgiving someone for doing you wrong."
This is your opinion, and it's not even a good opinion. To some people, those little details are the most important things of all.
4. "If you want to know what a true Christian should act like, look at how Christ lived his life."
I agree with this, but 90% of Christians don't act this way- not even you, I might add. (I dare you to ask me how I know that).
5. "Who says nobody gets it right?"
I says, bitch!
6. "Who are the ones that get it? The ones that live it each day of their lives and concentrate more on the core principles and less about the frivolous dogma said earlier."
Again, your opinion. It has no bearing whatsoever on an intelligent discussion. You're merely stating how YOU think things should be.
7. "The differences are not important. The core attributes are. When everybody understands this, then everyone will "get it" and "agree"."
Translation: "Once everybody sees it like I do, it'll all fall into place."
Lemme' tell ya something, Len, everybody thinks this exact same way, which is why the lot of you can kiss my white Scottish ass.
8. "Don't be an a$$ now and start insulting me."
I have no choice. I am indeed an a$$.
9. "By the way, thanks for comparing me to NWFish and telling me that my ideas are stupid."
No problem.
10. "I like you."
I like you too, but in a Viking sort of way.
11. "Jesus is not a mythology. There are records of a man with his name, description, walking around during that time, doing those particular deeds, and acting the way it is written down as in the Bible in different cultures including India where they refer to him as Saint Issa. In other words, the missing years of Jesus as known to Biblical scholars. Also the Buddhists, Muslims, and Hindus recognize him as an actual person that did exist."
This entire statement it TOTAL BULLSHlT!!! Back up ANY of it! Please, I beg of you! Give me one source, just one. A book, a web article, anything.
I was just kidding around about the rest of what you said, but stuff like this last paragraph truly pisses me off. It's just as bad as the creation "scientists" that claim to have evidence that the earth was created in seven days. Don't be one of the sheep, Len. Don't believe something simply because you want it to be true. Question, learn, scrutinize. Think for yourself.
12. "Well if people had it right from the beginning, they wouldn't need Jesus. They didn't have it right which explains why Jesus had to be born."
Ah, so God screwed up when he created us the first time, and he had to send Jesus to fix his mistake. Is that what I'm hearing? God put it all together, right? So he's SOLELY responsible for everything, including evil.
In Christian mythology, who created the devil? Oh yeah, God did. And since God knows everything, he knew that Lucifer would war against him even before he created the Morning Star. Apparently, God sucks.
13. "The guys in the Bible took a guess. They were wrong."
LISTEN TO YOURSELF!!! Is the bible divinely inspired or not? Why would you follow something that's full of mistakes?!? If you admit that there's at least ONE, then you have to entertain the possibility that there are others. HOW CAN YOU THINK LIKE THIS?!?
14. "That is just the unfortunate thing about humanity."
Which a perfect God created, right?
Again, Lenny, you are not arguing, you are making excuses for me being right. Sorry if I offended you, but if I don't speak up, you will keep getting to get away with thinking like this.
1. "No, it's not human nature to be concentrate on the differences between people. That's retarded. It's human nature to be "tribal". Maybe you should study a little behavioral biology before you make asinine comments like this."
If it's not human nature to concentrate on the differences between people, and we can't even agree on something simple like this, why even carry on this debate any further? We are not even getting into the spiritual vs. science stuff. Seems like you are trying to be right and just finding fault with everything I say. Alas, I will explain. sigh If people didn't concentrate on the differences between others, then where does racism come from? If people didn't concentrate on the differences between people, you wouldn't have feminism, if people didn't concentrate on the differences between people, you wouldn't have kids walking around trying to be different by simply changing their outward appearance to make a statement like nose rings, piercings, high black leather boots, etc. and ignoring what really matters like changing their attitudes and behavior, if people didn't concentrate on the differences between people, you couldn't decide on a presidant of the United States, if people didn't concentrate on the differences between people, you would have peace in the world, if people didn't concetrate on the difference between people, you would not be so discerning when choosing a girlfriend or wife, should I go on?
2. "That's a big "if", since you're talking about something there's absolutely no evidence for. But let's roll with this, shall we? Dogma and spirituality are both man made, and defined as such in religious texts like the bible. Stop being a pussy about it. There's a "blue print" for every religion there is, and people base their faith on said "blue print", then expanding into their own individual sense of dogma and spirituality." If there was a God, he'd be the ****tiest God our species ever had the misfortune to come under the dominion of. A perfect, all knowing being wouldn't pass his divine wisdom down to man in such a contradictory and convoluted venue, (I'm talking about the bible here). A perfect, all knowing being would make sure his instructions, will, plan for us, etc. was clear. The bible is anything but clear, and don't come back with any babbling bull**** to the contrary, because you'll just look like a dumbass."
Well the blueprint had to come from somewhere didn't it? You think someone just sat down one day without any spiritual influence and said "Hey! Let's create a thing called spirituality, and we'll tell everyone that it exists" and so on when it really doesn't?
And obviously you don't listen very well. I said Dogma is manmade, not spirituality. There is a difference between the two. Sure the word "spirituality" and "spirit" was manmade, but the very essence of what a spirit or spirituality really is has nothing to do with what man created. They just put a name on it. Dogma are a set of religious rules set up by man. Big difference there. Now the second part of what you are saying is God who is perfect wouldn't send a message through an unclear vessel. And God is ****ty for it and wah, wa,h wah, blah, blah, blah...lol You ever hear of philosophy? Not everything is clear in that and guess what? Philosophy is tangeable! You can argue it scientifically. This is the wisdom of man that man relies on and it's full of mind twisters. Why? Cause it's meant for you to do your own homework and think. Isn't that what you are telling me to do? Do my own thinking? Well guess what? What I am saying here is not in any Bible or holy book buddy. This is MY thoughts. Jesus spoke in parables. This stuff was not clear to even his disciples at times and they had to constantly ask him what he meant by certain things. Jesus is the Son of God anyone who sees the Son, sees the Father. The Bible was written many years after the story of Christ took place. People have free will and guess what? People are going to forget, they may change things, they may embellish on things, etc. God could change that in a second cause he can do anything. Why doesn't he change anything? Cause we have free will. That's why. A person with a clear conscience and pure in heart will be able to differentiate the core message from the flowery history lessons that takes up much of the so called killing, rape, etc...that you speak of. And by the way, God is not ****ty. We are. We don't even want to acknowledge that there is something greater than us simply cause we cannot see it. Most things we know that we consider tangeable was unknown before we "discovered it". But since we "discovered it", it's tangeable now and we can argue it. In order for you to discover evidence of God or anything spiritual for that matter, you have to meet that side of life on it's terms, not yours. Science is what you base a lot if not all of what your beliefs on and science has been known to be proven wrong many times. So don't knock my beliefs cause a bunch of a$$holes say God is with them and they are flying a plane into a building to do his will....cause they are wrong as well.
3. "This is your opinion, and it's not even a good opinion. To some people, those little details are the most important things of all."
People often concentrate on little frivolous details because they don't want to see the whole picture. I know this is a silly explanation but it's a cute way of explaining....when Mr Miyagi decided to teach Daniel-son karate, he made him do all those stupid jobs. Daniel could not understand why he was doing house chores instead of learning the martial arts. When you look at the overall story after it is all done you see it was a double wamme....Miyagi gets his house chores done and Daniel learns karate. But when you are watching this at the time, a lot of people don't know what's going on just like Daniel who concentrates on the little details of why things are happening the way they are. Like Daniel, we concentrate on the stupid little details in life....I want a nice car that has x amount of mileage on it, we want to have a girlfriend with a perfect body and personality, we want to have a house that is just right for whatever details would fulfill our happiness. But these details are nonsense. In the case of the car, be glad it runs, and takes you from point a to point b. That is the most important...not what color it is or if it has cool accessories. In the case of a girlfriend with the perfect anything, you are kidding yourself....are you perfect? You can only demand something of the same caliber that YOU are willing to put in and no one is perfect so forget that. And a house is manmade and no matter how well it is built, it will eventually fall apart and some details about the house you might not like but the overall package is great so you go with it...and that's better than not getting the whole thing simply cause of one thing wrong. You see why it is not important to worry about saying 88 Hail Mary's and eating meat on so and so day? Why? Will God love anybody less if they don't do those? You get more of a clearer message in life when you concentrate on the simple things in life that mean the most. Love everyone. Simple, straightforward, and can't be misinterpreted. Forgive people when they do you wrong. Same thing there. Help others that are less fortunate than you. Also the same. When you look at the Bible, it is basically a Jewish history book that has the truth sprinkled in it but you have to do your own homework and find it. It's like you telling me to do my own thinking for me. The Bible is a problem solving game you have to decode sometimes. Cause if we wanted to take it literally we would all be branches and Christ would be this big tree root. And you know that's not the case.
4. "I agree with this, but 90% of Christians don't act this way- not even you, I might add. (I dare you to ask me how I know that)."
I agree I don't act Christ-like all the time so there is no denying that. I could use a lot of help bettering myself as there are always ways to improve. I fall many times in life but I keep getting up to try again. That's what life is all about....challenge. If you didn't have something challenging you, you wouldn't grow. And sometimes we all have to fall many times to stand once but that standing once makes all the difference in the world. You said 90% of christians don't act like Jesus and you are right. It goes to show how hard it is to be a real christian doesn't it?
5. "I says, bitch!"
?? mmmmm-kay???
6. "Again, your opinion. It has no bearing whatsoever on an intelligent discussion. You're merely stating how YOU think things should be."
How I think things should be is a reflection on what makes sense. Same way YOU are arguing now. What makes sense to YOU. Otherwise you wouldn't have the way YOU are looking at things as a backing for YOUR statements.
7. "Translation: "Once everybody sees it like I do, it'll all fall into place."
Lemme' tell ya something, Len, everybody thinks this exact same way, which is why the lot of you can kiss my white Scottish ass."
No thanks....I like Swedish ass more hehehehe
8. "I have no choice. I am indeed an a$$."
Wellllllll since you put it that way.....okay.
9. "No problem."
If there isn't a problem, there shouldn't be a discussion. LOL
10. "I like you too, but in a Viking sort of way."
Then lets cry havoc and let loose the dogs of war baby!
11. "This entire statement it TOTAL BULLSHlT!!! Back up ANY of it! Please, I beg of you! Give me one source, just one. A book, a web article, anything.
I was just kidding around about the rest of what you said, but stuff like this last paragraph truly pisses me off. It's just as bad as the creation "scientists" that claim to have evidence that the earth was created in seven days. Don't be one of the sheep, Len. Don't believe something simply because you want it to be true. Question, learn, scrutinize. Think for yourself."
You are asking me for a paradox here. You are asking me to think for myself which means I can't give you any external source that has influenced my opinion, yet you are asking me for any "ONE" source that would be external, which would NOT be from my own mind's problem solving. Mike, make up your mind. LOL Why does it piss you off Mike? Are you mad that there actually could be non-Jewish sources that talk about Christ's existence? I do think for myself. Pretty much most of all my answers are MY opinion aren't they Mike? Isn't that what you were saying earlier about "That is YOUR opinion but everyone thinks differently? Well make up your mind Mike! I am either rehashing what others have said and am one of the herd or I have my own opinions. Either way to you, they are both wrong so why bother? LOL. But if you want a source to look up for proof (you will have an excuse why it isn't real so I really don't know why I bother) but, here it is...
Click on this site and scroll down to the "MORE" button. Once you click this, scroll down to the bottom and click on "lost years". Then click on part one and read on. There are 4 parts of it I think. Please read with an open mind. You only learn when you do.
12. "Ah, so God screwed up when he created us the first time, and he had to send Jesus to fix his mistake. Is that what I'm hearing? God put it all together, right? So he's SOLELY responsible for everything, including evil. In Christian mythology, who created the devil? Oh yeah, God did. And since God knows everything, he knew that Lucifer would war against him even before he created the Morning Star. Apparently, God sucks."
God didn't screw anything up. People screw things up.
Jesus went down to fix people's mistakes, not God's. Evil is a choice that God allows because if you didn't have evil there would be nothing to choose from and no growth from the person. You need to have something in opposition to progression in order to progress. Just like if you want to grow muscles you have to overload them with resistance (aka weight training) so they feel they have a reason to grow. If you want to get smarter, you challenge yourself in school, study/read, and go out and experience things. I can go on and on with examples. So the resistance of evil is a very necessary part of our sprirtual growth. God knew that Lucifer would rebel but that was his choice. If God would have stopped him by taking away the thought to think freely he would be imposing on Lucifer's free will and that would be going against the very reason God set up free will to begin with. The reason that God didn't stop Lucifier from having the thought to rebel is the same reason he doesn't stop people from doing wrong things on earth: free will. Lucifer had the same choice.
13. "LISTEN TO YOURSELF!!! Is the bible divinely inspired or not? Why would you follow something that's full of mistakes?!? If you admit that there's at least ONE, then you have to entertain the possibility that there are others. HOW CAN YOU THINK LIKE THIS?!?"
Hahahahahaha. Anything written down with the pen of man has room for error. We follow things in life that are prone to error daily....people get math solutions wrong, science has been wrong, and these are things that you DEPEND on to function normally and effectively each day. The Bible is no different.
14. "Which a perfect God created, right?"
Again, Lenny, you are not arguing, you are making excuses for me being right. Sorry if I offended you, but if I don't speak up, you will keep getting to get away with thinking like this."
A perfect God created a flawed humanity is what I am saying. Yes. Flawed physically, not spiritually. Our souls are immortal and pure. Our bodies are vehicles in this life that have imperfections in them to challenge our growth. Mike it's ok, you are not offending me. I really appreciate your honesy with not understanding some of my reasoning but that's why we have this debate right? I know we don't agree which is fine because people many times don't agree. I don't look at you as a subordinate, a threat, or whatever else you can think of that is not equal, lower, or better than me. I see you as someone that has his own concluded answers in life based on his own observations that makes sense to him. Which is fine. Everyone has opinions. Some people's are based entirely on others opinions, some are based somewhat on fact. I can tell you are a man of science. A type of person I encounter frequently. The things of the spirit are not provable to the science cause they are not bound by physical laws cause they are not physical. In other words, science was not meant to be able to prove spirituality. Much like an example would be how a barometer was not "meant" to be able to test temperature. Every kind of experiment has to involve instruments "designed" to fit the nature of the "experimented on". If you want to prove something about rocks and water, you can use science. If you want to prove something spiritual, you have go through a spiritual means to prove a spiritual thing. This is just common sense. Thanks for the debate Mike. Some good points you brought up there and your opposite views have helped me grow as well. Peace, love, and harmony brother!
Lenny
This message has been edited by Lenmaster on Mar 5, 2004 1:59 PM This message has been edited by Lenmaster on Mar 5, 2004 1:57 PM This message has been edited by Lenmaster on Mar 5, 2004 1:52 PM
Sorry for editing my response 3 times in a row. The first time was to fix spelling on two things. The second time half of the post was highlighted so I had to fix that. When I tried highlighting the whole thing and clicking twice after that, it doubled the link I put on there so I had to edit that again. LOL
DISCLAIMER: LONG POST, Read at risk of becoming a believer
March 6 2004, 10:02 AM
Just for sake of argument. Because as a Christian it is told that faith is stronger than fact. It does not matter to me if their is never any proven fact of Christ. My faith and belief's is all I need.
If I am wrong in the end and Christ is not real and all this hoopla is just that, then I still won't feel I wasted life. Because living in a Christian lifestyle has not hurt me in anyway. I just guess in the end I'll rot in the ground like everyone else. But the faith of going on to a better place after death is what keeps my faith in the right direction
Pliny, governor of Bithynia, wrote the Roman emperor Trajan (c. A.D. 112), asking for advice about how he should deal with Christians who made it a practice to meet on an appointed day to sing a hymn “to Christ as if to God” (Epist. X.96).
The Roman historian Tacitus, in his Annals (c. A.D. 115), referred to “Christus,” who “was executed at the hands of the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius” (XV.44).
Writing about A.D. 120, Suetonius, a popular Roman writer, declared that Claudius expelled the Jews from Rome because they “were continually making disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus” (Vita Claudii XXV.4). “Chrestus” is a corrupted form of Christos (Christ). Luke alluded to this situation in Acts 18:2.
ANTAGONISTS OF CHRISTIANITY
Another line of evidence establishing the historicity of Jesus is the fact that the earliest enemies of the Christian faith did not deny that Christ actually lived (see Hurst, 1897, 1:180-189).
Celsus, a pagan philosopher of the second century A.D., produced the oldest extant literary attack against Christianity. His True Discourse (c. A.D. 178) was a bitter assault upon Christ. Celsus argued that Jesus was born in low circumstances, being the illegitimate son of a soldier named Panthera (see above). As he grew , He announced Himself to be God, deceiving many. Celsus charged that Christ’s own people killed Him, and that His resurrection was a deception. But Celsus never questioned the historicity of Jesus.
Lucian of Samosata (c. A.D. 115-200) was called “the Voltaire of Grecian literature.” He wrote against Christianity more with patronizing contempt than volatile hostility. He said Christians worshipped the well-known “sophist” Who was crucified in Palestine because He introduced new mysteries. He never denied the existence of Jesus.
Porphyry of Tyre was born about A.D. 233, studied philosophy in Greece, and lived in Sicily where he wrote fifteen books against the Christian faith. In one of his books, “Life of Pythagoras,” he contended that magicians of the pagan world exhibited greater powers than Christ. His argument was an inadvertent concession of Jesus’ existence, and power
