Re: Contradiction to the Grapplers phrase "e;80% of all figts end on the ground"e;
March 1 2004, 11:26 AM
100% of my fights have ended on the ground ....... with me standing there looking down at them!
Keep Blasting!
Sifu Lamar M. Davis II
Head Instructor/Founder
Hardcore Jeet Kune Do Academy
Hardcore Jeet Kune Do Chinese Gung Fu Association http://www.HardcoreJKD.com http://www.RealCombatOnline.com
Sifu@HardcoreJKD.com
Phone (205) 956-1901
Re: Contradiction to the Grapplers phrase "e;80% of all figts end on the ground"e;
March 1 2004, 3:09 PM
Actually, the majority of the fights I've been a witness to usually end up with one guy on the ground as a result of a blow or push and the other guy or guys kicking him. Honestly, that's the majority. I'll admit, occasionally I've seen guys roll around a bit. Usually after one guy gets a head lock and starts pummeling the other guy. They fall, roll a bit and usually either end up back on their feet or people break it up. I've seen one guy ground and pound the other. I have never seen someone get submitted on the street or choked out, ever. Not that it happens, I've just never been a witness to it. All of them started standing up. So technically as long as one person ends up on the ground, even as a result of a blow, then they may be considered part of that statistic. Grappling isn't going to save you if you get ko'd, or are on the ground eating leather but I don't feel one should dismiss it because all ranges are important.
Re: Contradiction to the Grapplers phrase "e;80% of all figts end on the ground"e;
March 1 2004, 4:04 PM
This statistic is irrelevant to a martial artist. If you had said that 80% of trained fighters end up on the ground this maybe more relevant. However that cold truth is most fights on the streets are between people who have no idea how to fight. Yes you get people who have done a bit of this and that getting into scraps,but generally people who know what they are doing do not usually get into street fights. If they do it is a rare and short occasion.
My friend who is a bouncer told me of an incident a few weeks ago. A big fight had broken out, but out of the corner of his eye he saw this one guy just standing there watching. He sensed there was something dangerous about him, but could not pin it down. Later he heared someone say to the guy, "why do you not get involved" to which he (paraphrase) "this is beneath me". Turned out he was the european NHB champion. Saw one of his fights, he is a tough boy.
Anyway, my point really is this. People talk of street situations fare enough, but if you want to train to fight a five year old go ahead. If however you want to defend yourself against anyone, you may have to change your attitude to how you train. I say this because most people train for the lowest common denominator, not the most dangerous.
The street fights that I have been in or have witnessed have ended up on the ground, not intentionally. Usually, we/they would end up wrestling around after someone tries to football tackle the other guy out of blind rage. Or, grabbing and throwing the bad guy to the side and he $hit kicks the bad guy while he's on the ground, with his tennis shoes.
So, I don't think "80%" is an accurate percentage, but I do think it's a good estimate.
Re: Contradiction to the Grapplers phrase "e;80% of all figts end on the ground"e;
March 1 2004, 8:07 PM
While there is some truth to the argument that most fights end up on the ground I question the high figures as touted by many martial arts schools which emphasize grappling skills, however, let's assume that 90% to 95% of fights as many have been quoted as saying do end up on the ground. What proponents of this argument don't tell you, or can't tell you because maybe they just don't know is what happens in the 5% to 10% of fights that don't end up on the ground. Do you know why? It's because someone gets killed! So the question is, how do you know if you're dealing with the 90% to 95% of grapplers or the 5% to 10% percent of killers? The answer is, you just don't, and that's the point!
In a real fight to the death and especially for military personnel you have to assume that people are trying to kill you. It's insane to believe otherwise. If people want to study grappling arts I say more power to them, heck I was at a high school wrestling match not long ago catching up with my old coach Brian Tompkins, and I still think it's a great sport. I also think that all of the grappling arts are great arts and you definitely can't beat them for the cardiovascular workout. But understand, if you go to the ground and the person you're fighting means to kill you, it may be an exhibition you only get to perform one time. Choose wisely!
This message has been edited by keiloon on Mar 1, 2004 8:12 PM
Re: Contradiction to the Grapplers phrase "e;80% of all figts end on the ground"e;
March 4 2004, 9:45 AM
The 80% statistic is a bit misleading. Some people would assume that 80% of the time two people are rolling around on the floor. That is not the case, far from it. The fact, as long as one person ends up on the ground it falls into the statistic. Let's go through a number of scenarios and we'll see if it falls into the 80% range and a few that don't.
Two guys wrestle to the ground. (Yes)
One guy tackles, trips or whatever the other guy and proceeds to kick him. (Yes)
One guy KO's the other one with a kick or punch and he falls to the floor. (Yes)
Now, what proponents of ground fighting will have you believe is that you'll need ground fighting to defend yourself 90% of the time. Let's go back to the first fight. Two guys end up on the ground. Now if your stand up skills were better then it may not have come to this but since it has then ground fighting is valuable especially to defend yourself long enough to get back on your feet. The ground is the last place you'll want to be when you're in a life and death situation on the street. The second fight addresses the same subject. Now if you're the one on the floor, no amount of ground fighting is going to do you a bit of good if you're lying there receiving blows. If you're the one standing up then no ground fighting was necessary. In the third fight it's purely a stand up match that ends with one person knocked out. There was absolutely no ground fighting involved but the moment he hits the floor he falls into the statistic.
Let's take a look at what falls into the 20% range of fights not ending up on the ground.
Two guys fight and someone breaks it up. (Yes)
Two guys trade a few blows and decide they've had enough. (Yes)
Someone performs a standing joint lock and the other guy gives up. (Yes)
Now how many times does the above three examples happens. I'd say the first one comes up a lot especially in schools or bars where peers, teachers or bouncers may intercede. The second and third scenarios are rare.
So in my opinion, grappling and ground fighting while important are not the end all be all of fighting. Your stand up skills are equally if not more important. So don't confuse the 80% statistic with 80% ground fighting because it isn't. The statistical figure itself may not even be accurate since many fights go unreported. I'm not sure how one would go about getting such a statistic together. Anyway, in a fight someone is likely to end up on the floor, either rolling around with his opponent, lying their unconscious as a result of a blow, or lying their getting the stuffing kicked out of him. So it only makes sense to sharpen your stand up skills so that you don't end up on the floor. But you must also prepare for the worst incase you do.
This message has been edited by ElMastero on Mar 4, 2004 9:47 AM This message has been edited by ElMastero on Mar 4, 2004 9:46 AM This message has been edited by ElMastero on Mar 4, 2004 9:46 AM
The actual statistic is 90%, and this was first quoted by Rorion Gracie based on a mid-1980's FBI study of unarmed (weaponless) altercations. The data was collected from various law enforcement agencies, so basically we're talking about fights that happened between non-professional fighters, and resulted in a police report being filed.
Although, from my own experiences, I'd say this statistic is pretty accurate... it's not empirically viable, at least no more than ANY statistic is empirically viable. Unless you gather data from EVERY individual who's gotten into a weaponless fight within a certain time period, you can only make an estimate. But then, that's what the field of "statistics" is.
That being said, if you can't fight on the ground, you can't fight. The brawl I was involved in this past Saturday night really drove this certainty home to me. At one point, even Justin was on the ground, and probably not by choice.
Take solace in this, though: most martial artists (or Americans, for that matter) never get into an actual street fight...
Re: Contradiction to the Grapplers phrase "e;80% of all figts end on the ground"e;
March 4 2004, 10:03 PM
Some of you aren't really getting my point... what i meant was all fights start standing up but a grappler would say what would happen in 80% of fights would end up that the two guys would be grappling and would end in grappling! which will not always happen..
Re: Contradiction to the Grapplers phrase "e;80% of all figts end on the ground"e;
March 5 2004, 1:22 AM
yes alot of fights do end up on the ground for what ever reason. A trained fighter in power and speed ECt. Can take a guy out without going to the ground, but as said above. If you cannot fight on the ground then you are toast if it ends up there and the other fighter is trained on the ground.
I have seen more fights ended with very powerful shots to the head.
But I am not a grappler at heart and will be inclined to take you out prior to that. Alot of fighters just do not react quick enough to a person charging or attempting to grapple, extreme mobility will cancel out a grapplers advances. And then just take him apart.
jiyasa (NAZ)
one hell of a new anime movie you are making! very talented stuff! Good luck in the completion of it!
The main character looks just like you.
The statistic of "90% of fight end up on the ground" is not based on actual public fights. It is based soley on LAPD statistics regading encounters with police officers.
This was taken by certain groundfighting based styles and distorted to sell their programs. Most incidents involving police officers end up on the ground because they (the police) are trying to restrain someone, not punch them out. (The 90% figure was taken from LA. Police arrest statistics).
Some groups that are trying to get accurate statistical information on real life altercations are finding that only 40% or less of fights go to the ground when it is male vs male.
But approx 75% or more when it is male vs female. This difference is due primarily that a male will try to get a female to the ground to control her for various reasons.
The following text was from the January 2004 American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers conference:
One of the myths about personal protection is the old misquoted statistic, "90% of all fights wind up on the ground." This statistic has been used to sell ground fighting systems as the ultimate in self defense. If you have been in the martial arts or personal protection game long enough you have certainly heard this thing tossed around. You may have even heard the source - "according to the LAPD". That the statistic is wrong, AND misused.
The ASLET conference featured training in joint lock takedowns with retired sergeant John L. Sommers, the very man who conducted the use of force study with the LAPD and designed their defensive tactics program. His study looked at 6000 use of force reports from the LAPD and found that 60% of the time the arresting officer was knocked to the ground. One of the major reasons for this is that California has the 3 strikes rule and recidivist criminals are more likely to fight back to try to get away. Here are some of the main problems with the way this statistic is misused:
1. The percentage is 60% not 90% the numbers are frequently inflated to seem more convincing. While 60% is a majority, that means that more than one third of incidents did not result in an officer being knocked down. Also, the statistics did not measure "fights" but police officer "use of force" reports.
2. The actual study was of police officer use of force incidents in LA and did not study self defense situations involving civilians. Such a study would be impossible to conduct anyway. You cannot apply the data from one representative sample to an entirely different population. If 98% of the population of the Philippines eats rice three meals a day, you cannot also say that people living in Kansas also eat rice for three meals a day. It is a non-representative sample.
3. The use (misuse) of statistics is frequently combined with false but logical-sounding conclusions. A single data point is used to represent conclusions that the data does not indeed support. This makes an argument sound very credible even when it is not. Example = 100% of all people that consumed carrots in 1889 are now dead - therefore carrots kill you, so you better stop eating them.
On top of all this the statistic is used to make people think that going to the ground is a good idea. To quote Sergeant Sommers, (who worked with the Gracies, the Machados, Benny Urquidez and several other top martial artists) "I recommend you never go to the ground." The very author of the study and designer of the training program thinks going to the ground on purpose is a very bad idea.
I also attended a seminar by Dr. Darrell L. Ross from East Carolina University on police use of force. He has examined thousands of studies on millions of police interactions. He found that of the approximately 71,000 police officers injured every year - the overwhelming majority of those are injured while wrestling with or bringing a subject to the ground.
It sounds to me like it is a good idea to stay off the ground but know what to do if you do wind up there. This is what I have been saying, and what law enforcement and military folks have told me for years. Notice I did NOT say that you shouldn't study ground fighting. On the contrary, I think it's very important.
Also keep in mind that the moment you throw somebody to the ground, climb on them, and punch them - you are committing assault and battery in most jurisdictions. The hockey dad case in Massachusetts is an example. Thomas Junta was assaulted in front of his children grounded and punched his assailant who hit his head on the concrete and died. Mr. Junta is now serving time for involuntary manslaughter.
