I thought that was a BL quote from long street, but hey I suppose he could have nicked it from some zen classic.
Some Karate dude came round to my house last year, trying to recruit people for his class. I invited him in for a chat. After listening to his sales pitch (and believe me it was a sales pitch he had written down in front of him), I asked him a few questions.
I wanted to know if they sparred full contact. He said "No, because it puts begginers off". Ok, but I'm not gonna be put off. He had no answer.
He told me they taught blocks, kicks and punches, then preceded to show me an album with pictures of his Sensei and other students. He was particularly proud of his 4th dan sensei's picture, which to me just look like some guy with a pole up his arse.
I politely made it clear that I was not gonna join his club. To which, he used the BL quote (which did not escape my sense of irony) and told me I empty my cup. You see the problem with this is that I do not not want to empty my cup for tea I have already discarded as stale ****.
Basically what I am trying to say is you are not going to learn from everyone as not everyone or every style has some useful to give. This is the sad reality of it all. You just have to look at the Tai Chi verses white crane clip to see that. Do not be blinded by your perception of humility. It is just another form of pride.
The two quotes have different meanings. Bruce's quote from Longstreet was pointing at being fluid in your movements and was probably something he adapted for himself from somewhere, it places the emphasis on the water flowing, creeping, crashing and that your movements should be like. The zen quote I think was aimed at emptying your mind from all preconceptions so you may learn some more, it has less or no emphasis on the liquid and more on the cup being the mind.
At the same point Jack how do you know that they had nothing to offer you?
P.S. I certainly wouldn't want to discount the benefits of Tai Chi or indeed White Crane on the strength of some clip.
P.P.S. For what it's worth Tai Chi is the pinnacle of Shaolin Kung Fu.
This message has been edited by Damian5 on Mar 18, 2004 9:27 AM
Forced humility is false pride. Kjax, that is true, some things are never going to be put in your tea cup.
Would you put piss in your cup because you never had tasted it before? No! Not unless you're dumb enough to beleive it possibly is going to be good to drink, just because you never took a swig of piss before. I hear where you are coming from.
Firstly the particular quote of emptying ones cup is not the one regarding flowing like water. In the scene where the lead asks Lee to teach him, the potential student says "i am willing to empty my cup, to taste your tea". So no it is not Zen, just a smart alec way of saying I wanna learn from you. Oh and the one you refer to is more Taoist then Chan (Zen) although one can argue they are the same thing, it is more in line with Toaist way explianing things.
Secondly Tai Chi is not the Shaolins pinnacle for several reasons, not least because it was founded in the Wu Dan temple as appose to the Shaolin. Tai Chi is a very popular exercise, and is very good for your health, but that does not make it the pinnacle. Its like saying TKD is the best because it really popoular. No one style can be called the pinnacle, when did you start researching martial arts dude!! You need to differentiate well marketed martial arts and populist theory from the truth.
Hello Mike, thanks for your insight into this post.
It was funny.
As, i was saying before. You all would not know anything about anything, if you did not listen and open your mind to new ideas. Some of the ideas that you have listened to have most likely become part of you.
All i wanted to put across to all of you is remember to keep an open mind.
I do agree that there are somethings not worth learning, however how do you consider them not worth learning unless you have learned them.
I am not having a go at you all.
I just hope you see this post as a friendly reminder for keeping your mind open and sharp.
Sorry Jack, I thought you meant the other one from Longstreet.
You're quite right that Tai Chi Chuan came from Wudang mountain, strangely, story has it initially by someone who retreated there after completing his training at the Shaolin monastery. I meant Chi Kung. Is it fair to say Tai Chi Chuan is derived from Shaolin Kung Fu?
Pinnacle may not have been the best choice of word either, more the final stage in training.
Most of Bruce Lee's quotes are not all his. Just like the way he mixed and matched Martial Arts to express his style of fighting, he did the same with quotes. He collected his favorites and actually practiced what he preached.
No need to apologise Damien, but appreciated anyway.
You are correct to say the guy who developed Tai Chi did is training in the shaolin temple, he then went on a lot of travels to which there are numerous legends. At the Wu Dan mountain he combined his Taoist phylosophies with is knowledge of combat and chi kung to come up with a series of exercises.
I must say I do not like the Chi Kung is the final stage of Kung Fu either. It kinda suggest there is an end to development. I do Chi Kung, I also teach basic chi kung, I certainly do not consider it to be mediocre. However it is a part of martial training, not the end stage or highest form etc. It is a very powerful tool if you use it appropriately like any other aspect of martial training.
SAS I appreciate what you are saying. I've not been here as long as some, but I have realised that in between the banter and slagging off matches there sometimes is some serious martial arts talk. It get dull if you all prim and proper all the time.
No need to apologise Damien, but appreciated anyway.
You are correct to say the guy who developed Tai Chi did is training in the shaolin temple, he then went on a lot of travels to which there are numerous legends. At the Wu Dan mountain he combined his Taoist phylosophies with is knowledge of combat and chi kung to come up with a series of exercises.
I must say I do not like the Chi Kung is the final stage of Kung Fu either. It kinda suggest there is an end to development. I do Chi Kung, I also teach basic chi kung, I certainly do not consider it to be mediocre. However it is a part of martial training, not the end stage or highest form etc. It is a very powerful tool if you use it appropriately like any other aspect of martial training.
SAS I appreciate what you are saying. I've not been here as long as some, but I have realised that in between the banter and slagging off matches there sometimes is some serious martial arts talk. It get dull if you all prim and proper all the time.
I guess it does suggest an end to development and perhaps that's exactly what it is. Surely if you've learnt all you can about the Shaolin arts, there will eventually be a point where you can no longer learn. It doesn't mean to suggest an end to development as a human being though does it?
Bruce had a major in philosophy. and many of his sayings were mere zen,taoist, and wing chun kuen kuits put in his own words. for example, lee said in ETD: when my opponent expands, I contract; when he contracts I expand, when there is an opening, I don't hit , IT (the Hand, foot or weapon) hits all by it self"
this is another way of saying the wing chun moto of" stay with what comes, follow as it retreats, strike foward when there is disengagement"
the tea cup saying: "to be able to taste my tea , you must first empty your cup". means to be able to understand my technique, style, system, method, or way. you must first empty your mind,and forget about what you already have learnt else where. or this will not alow you to absorb what I have to teach. and you will begin with the old "oh I know this and that" attitude. sothen why are you here if you know so much?
the "become the cup and flow like water", means ... to be free of step by step chorographed techniques, and to be able to adapt to the situation, one is being served. to be able to reach this freedom to express your self, takes years of training so that reflex action acts by it self, with out thinking,or as many but it...an empty cup or mind!
