ie. do you find it useful in sparring? have you used it in a fight? where do you stand on kali/wc trapping?
is trapping a range in its self or a component of another range? etc. etc.
(PS please don't post BS on my thread! Really I mean it! No juvenile crap, please!)
I think that trapping is an extremely important and highly functional part of the Jeet Kune Do practitioner's arsenal. I take trapping very seriously, and train it as often as possible.
ie. do you find it useful in sparring?
Yes, I have often used it in sparring.
Have you used it in a fight?
Yes, on many occasions. In fact, it is easy for me to use in a real fight, as the opponent never seems to expect anything like trapping to occur. They are usually blown away by it!
Where do you stand on kali/wc trapping?
I do not practice kali trapping. Kali has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do! I am quite familiar with wing chun, but I consider my trapping to be Jun Fan Gung Fu/Jeet Kune Do trapping, or even more specifically, Hardcore Jeet Kune Do trapping.
Is trapping a range in its self or a component of another range? etc. etc.
There is NO SUCH THING as a "trapping range"! You are either in range or out of range, and the ranges are long, medium or close. It's just that simple. I can perform trapping from long range, medium range and close range.
I hope this answers your questions adequately. If you have more questions regarding trapping or the training of trapping, I would be more than happy to answer them for you!
Personally I have struggled to integrate a lot of trapping into my sparring.
I'm not dismissing it, but I think a lot of people have the same problem.
However I am surprised that you don't think kali has anything to do with jeet kune do, as a lot of people, in the JKD fraternity, seem to draw things from that style.
A lot of people will probably get on here and bash trapping, saying it simply doesn't work against a trained boxer, grappler, blah blah blah. The truth of the matter is, effective trapping takes a lot of structural soundness, something most people today simply don't have, including Wing Chun and JKD practitioners. At the very least these guys should know how to do it! I have not crossed hands with many people, but I've experienced the difference between hard, effective trapping, and the rest. The two people who have trapped me the hardest are Lamar Davis and Patrick Strong. When they trapped me, both were able to totally, and I mean TOTALLY, shut me down. I literally couldn't move if I wanted to. On top of that, their pak saos felt like giant hands slapping the HELL out of my arm, and it hurt! BAD! Both of these men have outstanding structure, and both are able to move men bigger than themselves, even though those are in short supply considering Sifu Davis is built like a bear and Patrick Strong is over 6 feet tall. Regardless, the best saying I've ever heard about trapping came from both Pat and Sifu Davis:
"If anyone says trapping doesn't work, what they are really saying is they don't know how to make it work."
Have a nice day.
One excellent 3rd generation JKD instructor, coming up.
You aren't the only one! It's harder than HELL to incorporate "classical" compound trapping in sparring, particularly when your opponent's are of any considerable skill.
Imagine trying to "trap" a guy like Sakuraba or Wanderlei Silva, lol! It's not going to happen.
Is the only time you are ever going to get into a confrontation going to be with a world class fighter? If so, not only would trapping most likely not work but you would deserve the ass beating you would get....trying to beat up Sakuraba or Wanderlei Silva.....
Against your average drunk in a bar or a confrontation you are likely to get into, yes trapping can work. But to say that trapping wont work on Mike Tyson is not a valid arguement against trapping.
Matt
This message has been edited by CHOZINJUAN on Mar 20, 2004 11:58 AM
Matt, you misunderstood. I was using those names only as examples.
Quite frankly, trapping isn't effective against less than world-class opposition. Try it against a real boxer with a 6 months or more experience. You'll find the same things. Try it against a collegiate level wrestler (or even a wrestler in high school) and watch it not work.
Strange, as it works quite well for me against EVERYONE I have tried it on! Oh well, I guess it just goes back to how hard you train to develop trapping skill, who your instructor is, and whether or not they teach realistic trapping!
The main problem I have seen is people tend to think, "Hey, I think I'll trap this guy!" That is not how it works! Trapping is usually incidental, if not even accidental! You first goal is to HIT the opponent, not to trap them! Think HIT, HIT, HIT and HIT some more! That is JKD! If trapping is needed in the course of the exchange, it will happen automatically if your skill is where it should be. Other than that, by alll means train it, but don't go looking for opportunities to trap!
The sensitivity it builds up allows you to trap as soon as you meet resistance.
I notice when I try to punch them, and they block my hand, I usually do a lop sau and simultaneous hit or a similar simple trap. It's automatic, as soon as resistance is felt, you deal with it.
Trapping is a topic that will be debated until somebody that has training in trapping, real training in trapping, steps into the ring to prove their point, until then, this argument will just go in circles.
Yes, I realize that some may believe that their art/method/style is "to deadly for the ring" but if you use trapping in sparring with your classmates, teachers and other students, then you should be able to use it in a MMA/NHB ring.
Of course some others will make the argument "We/I have nothing to prove"...true, but why be so vocal then? If you have nothing to prove, why the passion every time this argument comes up?There are amateur level NHB matches all over the country, surely with the volume of Wing Chun and JF/JKD schools out there, there has to be at least one student or instructor that can step up and prove the effectiveness of that tool.
Anyway, whether I believe in trapping or not is really meaningless (or at least should be) but I do wonder about the efficiency of trapping vs. taking an un-obstructed path to the target.
Now, one quick disclaimer here. This post is NOT AN ATTACK on Lamar Davis, JF/JKD, Wing Chun or any of it's practitioners. It's just my feelings on trapping. Cool?
Hey Lamar, you say you have always been able to apply this. Someone else has verified your ability to do it on them. My question is have you tested it against anyone of sigificance? I do not mean people in the JKD world or Wing Chun, especially no one you were teaching. Have you tried it against a class wrestler or class pro boxer?
I ask this soley because although you seem to be well known in the JKD world, outside of this you are not (I was from outside of the JKD world, still am really). Thus if your trapping is so effective why are you not as well known?
I was the best Trapper in the class; I made it look effective and the slaps echoed across the room when I trapped with my partners. However, when it was time to spar, it didn’t want to work for me. I guess there is a time and place for trapping, like if you wanted to be the aggressor and randomly attack innocent people that are unaware that you are about to attack them.
Trapping is grabbing and controlling another person’s limbs to better position yourself for a strike (Or striking first, then controlling for more strikes). So, Trapping to me, are 2 Aikido Wrist Locks, Standing Arm-Bar, and a simple Kung-Fu Finger twist. I can add punches and Kicks if I wanted to be a real bad Mo-fo.
Phases ®
This message has been edited by Phases on Mar 21, 2004 8:56 PM
Hi am new to this forum. Trapping is like any other tool you have at your disposal. You have to train at it just like anything else to be any good at it. John you may be right with the boxer with 6months traing you might not be able to trapp them if you dont train for that situation. why dont you flip flop that around what would a boxer do if they were jab away and next thing you his arms are being all tangled up. As lamar says it is all in the training and the traing method. yes if you stand in one spot and dont move around like a boxer to figure out the timing maybe to get that trapp you will proably never get the trapp off. if you dont practice basic kick boxing skills with your trapping vocabulary you will proably never become that good at trapping. I boxed for 3 years and trapping will work against a boxer depending the skill level between the two people. And has for the kali part of it open hand kali and trapping work really well together along with sectoring (simultanios parry hit). That is just my opinion.
My interest in trapping is not to use it in competition type events, therefore I could care less who I can or cannot trap. That was not my point. Also, if someone knows that you are going to attempt to trap them, they are going to do everything possible to avoid it. Trapping is for use in combative situations where that opportunity presents itself, not to go out and "try to trap" someone. I hope you understand where I am coming from here.
As for how well known I am, that varies. I used to do a lot of writing in the late eighties, early and mid nineties. In that time, I had over one hundred articles published in martial arts magazines all over the world. My articles have been featured in Chinese martial arts magazines printed in Hong Kong. I have been on the cover of many martial arts magazines worldwide. In the late nineties, my writing focus turned more inward, and I started working on books. At that time I quit submitting articles to the martial arts magazines. Also at that time I became less known, due to the lack of constant exposure that I was getting when I was featured in the magazines all of the time.
My first book, Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do Scientific Streetfighting, was released in the year 1999. It was published by Health 'n' Life Publishing of Manchester, England. Although the book came out well, the distribution is not that great. Of course, that is the publisher's duty, not mine.
At the end of last year, I started work on a ten volume series called Hardcore Jeet Kune Do. This series will be published in both English and Spanish. The first volume will be out later this year. The distribution will be much better for these books, and I will once again be in the public eye.
I have been content to run my organization for the past few years, and work with my students, which are scattered all over the world. Therefore there hasn't been that much to thrust me into the public eye very often. With the new online magazine that I am heavily involved in, Real Combat Online, and the release of these new books, I will be coming alive again in the eyes of the martial arts world. I will again be releasing magazine articles to help promote the books. I will also be releasing a ten volume set of DVD's on Hardcore Jeet Kune Do later this year. Along with all of this, I have a new line of Jeet Kune Do clothing planned for release later this year, as well as a signature fighting knife of my design.
In July, I am being inducted into the Universal Martial Arts Hall of Fame with the Jeet Kune Do Master of The Year Award. The event will be held in Orlando, Florida, and I have already been asked to teach several seminars at the event. This is my sixth or seventh Hall of Fame induction in my career. I am not really into those events that much, but I am looking forward to this one because I will be teaching the seminars there.
All of my training and research into the martial arts has been based on a search for realistic self defense. I have NEVER been interested in competition of any kind or the UFC/NHB kind of events. That is great for those who like it, but I don't care for it.
My entire adult life has been spent on an exhaustive research into Bruce Lee's teaching, training and fighting methods. That is my love and my interest in the world of martial arts. I will soon be forty-seven years old, and I have been in the martial arts since the age of ten. I have trained with many of Bruce Lee's original students, and am certified as a Full Instructor by five of them. My goal is to preserve Bruce Lee's original teaching, training and fighting methods for future generations. I have many excellent Apprentice Instructors under me, and a few Full Instructors. Through the training that I provide for them, and they provide for others, this incredible fighting art of Jun Fan Gung Fu/Jeet Kune Do will continue to survive. That is all the recognition that I need!
Hope that clears things up! Best wishes to you and keep training hard!
Sorry if the last post sounded a little offensive, I did not intend it to be. I am not questioning your fame, I am sure you are famous. There are lots of famous people I never heared of.
Anyway back to my point. Say for instance the only time someone used trapping against me was when I fisrt started martial arts, I went to a wing chun class and the teacher used this on me. Since I stopped Wing Chun, some 6 years ago, no one has been able to trap me. Does this mean that trapping does not work?
Maybe you would say, I have not sparred with anyone proficient in the application of such techniques, but I could say the opposite to you. So we go round and round in circles. So when I ask who did you fight to test this, I do not mean this in a macho way. I mean have you tested it to destruction against people who could destroy it? You do not have to answer this, it is not a question that needs one.
I appreciate your point that you do not intend to trap, but when the situation arises you should do so. You could, in fact you should say that about every technique.
EXACTLY! There is a time and place for everything, and there are many techniques in the martial arts (and just fighting in general) that do not work if "forced". In fact, I have seen where many times students in sparring continue to attempt something, trying to "force" it to work. After severe frustration and failure, they give up, only to find that what they were trying to force just suddenly happened naturally when the opportunity presented itself!
I like trapping so much for the same reason many people like grappling a lot. It enables you to fully control an opponent. Also, trapping many times just flows right into holds, locks, breaks or takedowns. I find it highly effective and useful in bouncer work. I work on weekends in the largest club in Birmingham when I am not travelling.
Alot of people don't realise, that trapping isn't when someone punches at you and you grab his hand out of the air. Because that's literally impossible to do on someone constantly throwing quick jabs at you.
Trapping is, let's say, you bridge the gap with a low kick, then attempt a lead punch, you are trying to hit them with this punch, but they blocked your punch. Now if you withdraw your arm to attack again, this gives them a chance to attack. So once they have blocked your strike you can flow to a trap, let's say a lop sau, or pak to lop. That's how trapping is used. It will happen automatically if trained right.
So of course trapping won't work on a boxer continuously throwin jabs at you. because that's now how you use trapping. Trapping is used when you meet an obstruction (ie. they block you're tool, so you trap it).
I hear what your saying Naz. However this is where my phylosophy in a fight differs. Where you would trap I would strike. You say that you trap because when you withdraw your hand that space is used by the opponent, I say that space is used by my other hand or my knee or my elbow or my head.
You go hit 1 trap hit 1, I go hit 1 hit 2 hit 3. There is always a gap to hit someone they can not block every where and everything. You have a contiuos attack from every angle with all your weopons, blocking and trapping become irrelevent.
Trapping in this case is like waiting for a ferry to cross a river when there is a perfectly good bridge you can drive across.
Naz, if they are blocking the punch with their lead hand (which they almost would HAVE to be doing), you could just knock them out, never having to "trap" in the first place. Lead arm blocking is a no-no in boxing for a reason.
Some people are approaching this as if you have to make a "choice" between trapping and striking. You can trap and strike at the same time folks! In fact a strike can be done in such a way as to "trap". (Hint - sliding leverage). And there are some people who are able to "make" a trap happen. Traps can be setup. Trapping can be used as an "attack". Speaking for myself I've been trapped with my arms in "wing chun" position "JKD" position even "boxing guard" position. And the person that did this to me TOLD me what he was about to do. Eye opening experience. Now I'm not discounting the possibility that I just suck, but I'm willing to bet that there are alot of people out there who discount trapping that suck just as bad as I do.
Regards,
John M. Drake
This message has been edited by jdrake on Mar 24, 2004 10:23 AM
Based on what many of you are saying, I now know for a FACT that you still don't have the slightest clue how to trap, or what trapping is really used for! I will tell you this: If I trap you, you can forget about hitting me! That's all there is to it!
First of all, I won't trap unless there is a need to! Second, my traps ARE blindingly fast attacks! They HURT, and are very damaging to the limbs in concern! Three, the strike used in conjunction with the trap goes out actually BEFORE the trap is completed, therefore you are being attacked compoundly in one beat! Four, I can insert sliding leverage strikes on the "half beat" during trapping, which puts me hitting two or three times to my opponent's one hit. Five, trapping is about controlling and doing EXTREME DAMAGE to the opponent, not making some retarded move that leaves you wide open. Six, trapping uses applied centerline pressure. When you are standing on the train track, you can't just hold out your hand and stop the train! Can we say "SPLAT"?
As I stated above, I know now that some of you have never really experienced true trapping. If you had, you would not make some of the boldly ignorant statements that I have read above! In less than the time it takes you say, "Well, I would just ......", you have been trapped, shut down completely and hit five or six times, and are very lucky if you are even still conscious! You should experience trapping as taught by Jerry Poteet, Steve Golden, Patrick Strong or Jesse Glover (or even myself)! Then you would say, "Hmmmmmm, maybe I need to just shut up now!"
Lamar sometimes you sound alright othertimes you talk gibberish. So you say you can do 5 things before I do one. That is a bit a arrogent seeing as you do not know how fast I move. You qouted some famous names in the American Jeet Kun Do scene, so what is that meant to prove something?
I am sure you are very fast and powerful and that every move you make is deadly. Be careful how much you think of yourself my friend you starting to sound like our Fishy boy. You could stand and wait for the train to run you over or you could get off the track.
For the record I've trained with two of the "famous JKD" guys mentioned and I had a chance to see what one of them could REALLY do. Though he's much older and smaller than me he was able to shut me down and basicly do what he wanted. And it's not simply about being "fast". He can do this moving "slow". Some people have the strategic ability to totally take you out of your game. Somehow I don't think that if anyone had talked about how easily Rickson Gracie can shut people down with grappling you would have "missed the point". There are some people who have never competed in anything but who can do some amazing things. Amazing to me anyway. But like I said, maybe I just suck.
Regards,
John M. Drake
This message has been edited by jdrake on Mar 24, 2004 12:04 PM
I hope you don't think that Sifu Davis is trying to insult you. As my dad likes to say, ignorance can be cured but stupid is forever. Not to say that people on this or any other forum don't know what they are talking about, but there are a lot of people out there who spout off, insult and flame people who disagree with them, and talk out of their butt. This forum was rank with them for quite a while, but it seems like they are finally leaving. Anyway, Sifu Davis is really fighting an uphill battle, and mostly by himself. I haven't seen many other truly skilled trapping experts make comments about trapping and its uses, and how to trap correctly. I would suggest that you email Sifu Davis and all of the people above with your questions about trapping. Better yet, order some of their videos and go to some seminars if you have the chance. I just wanna make sure that you understand how much crap Sifu Davis gets from morons (not you Jack or John ) for saying trapping works. I try to help out but I'm no expert.
One excellent 3rd generation JKD instructor, coming up.
Hi John, I hear exactly what you are saying. I realise there are some awesome fighters out there that we will never even hear of.
I am not suggesting that Lamar is rubbish nor the individuals he has mentioned. What I am suggesting is that there is possibly a better way than the trapping way. No one has to stop doing trapping because of this suggestion, but my the point I made earlier about hit hit hit instead hit trap hit has not been fully answered by Lamar in my opinion.
My point to him was he has made the assertion that somehow his is so fast he can do 5 moves before anyone of us can do one. This may be the case, but any real high level man would not be so presumptive. Maybe he can say this about people he has done it on, but hold on before you believe yourself better than anyone else. Such things need to be proved on a face to face manner. This is not a challenge (although it would be nice to spar in real life) but just pointing out that on the web such statements are meaningless so you better come up with a descent argument.
As far as Rickson Gracie I think he is an awesome fighter I am sure he would whoop my arse. I do not worship the fellow, but respect what I have seen him do. Stories people tell about him are amusing but I never really take that to heart. I am more interested in what I can and can not do. So please do not make assumptions on how you think I would react to a comment.
To the fellow Darkwin or summit, this is not a war where one has to defend a particular technique. This is a forum where we exchange view points in the off chance we may learn something from it.
Bloke, you have nothing to apologise for. Some people believe themselves better. Better to be the fool that knows he is one, then the wise man who believes in his own wisdomhood.
Another saying that applies here is "It is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt!" I did not mean what I said in the context that you have placed it. What I meant was that trapping should be very explosive and aggressive. The trap is and attack! It is not a passive, "patty cake" thing like some have made it out to be! Once I land the first hit, it will just be hit, hit, hit and hit some more from that point! It's not trap, trap and trap, it's hit, hit and hit! The trap just opens the door for more strikes while shutting the opponent's defensive structure down at the same time! If your traps don't do this, you are doing something wrong!
As for the names I mentioned, those men have had the greatest influence on my approach to trapping. All I was saying is that maybe you should experience what we have before dismissing the value of trapping!
Don't try to make what I state on here out to be something that it is not! Fair enough?
Norwoodbloke, I see no need for you to appologize for anything you've said. Nor do I think any negative comments have been directed at you. After all, from what I've seen you haven't said that trapping CAN'T work, only that you have trouble doing it, and the people you workout with have trouble doing it on you. Personally I'm not offended by anything you've said, but then I'm not offended by anything anyone else has said in this thread, including those who I disagree with.
Jack, you're still talking "speed". It's not simply about speed. It's about "control". Someone mentioned the fact that instead of trapping you can "hit another line". That's well and good. But the other guy can "hit another line" just as well. Sometimes you see fights where people just "trade punches". I'd rather have myself in a position where I can hit and the other guy can't. For instance look at this pic.
The guy in the red trunks is in position to score with either hand. The guy in the blue trunks is at a serious disadvantage. Remember what I said about how one person was able to shut me down even "moving slow"? If you've cut off your opponents line of attack for even a second or two how many strike do you think you could get in? Say if every strike you threw not only hit, but also cut off lines off attack? Now how many strikes could you through before someone had a chance to retaliate?
Side note. Somebody should tell these guys that blocking with the lead hand is a no-no.
This guy's blocking with his rear hand, but it doesn't seem to be doing much good.
Anyway, that's a side issue. There are ways to trap regardless of how someone is defending or holding his hands.
Regards,
John M. Drake
This message has been edited by jmdrake on Mar 25, 2004 12:17 PM
It looks like he just screwed up in that picture. A lead arm cover would have certainly been better. However, even then it's not going to be a block where the elbow comes out away from the body. In other words, it's not likely to be something easily "trapped" in the traditional/classical sense.
Hi Lamar. Fair enough dude. However, I would like to point out that I was not making out like you meant sometimg else, you said we would have to shut up once we saw you and your instructors do trapping.
Joe Lewis quote "if you have time to trap, you have time to hit, and hitting is more damaging." One of BLs more accomplished students.
John I agree that control is important, but speed is far more fundamentally important. However I would say speed is not everything in a fight, you instinct is even more important. For instance the photo of the 2 boxers in your trapping example, in this situation I would use my knees; far more effective. You forget we are martial artists not boxers contained by the rules of sport.
I do not understand this trying to make openings when so many already exist. I understand you want to shut down some of their weapons, but i prefer doing this via practicing a non linear attack, so 1) they are confused as to where the target is 2) I come in from their side halve their body is useless already. This comes down to good footwork bobbing and weaving etc. And what idiot stands there to exchange blows? Really.
The only time I can see myself holding hands with a guy in a fight is if I was doing chin na on him, where i did not want to hit him.
Yes, I have heard Joe make that statement, as I have spent quite a bit of time with him and we are friends. The thing is, when I trap, I have just tried to hit and my line was obstructed. So, rather than passively withdrawing my hand to cover as I attempt to hit another open line, I simply blast right through the obstruction using a trapping maneuver, making severe impact immediate rather than just playing around hoping I hit that open line.
The idea, as Patrick Strong puts it, is to shock the system. The trap sends shock into the opponent, buying you the necessary time to obliterate them before they can recover. As I said in another post, there is absolutely nothing slow or passive about my trapping! The trap itself is an attack! It's purpose is to shut their structure down immediately! In a life or death conflict, there is no time for sport activity, you have to get it over with fast and get out of there! If I can hit, hit, hit and then go, GREAT! If the trapping is needed, however, it's very reassuring to know that the skill is there.
I'm not there for a kickboxing match. I'm there because something went wrong and I have been attacked unjustly by someone. I have no time to play around and kickbox with them. My goal is TOTAL DESTRUCTION at the earliest possible moment! In other words, GAME OVER! I go home, they might make it there eventually!
So far, EVERYONE that I have taught during my teaching career has changed any negativity they had to start with toward trapping. They now know for a fact that it does work, and are training hard to perfect that skill. All I was saying is that maybe you need to experience a different approach to trapping to fully understand where I am coming from!
I am not trying to argue here, because to me there is no argument! I just want you to understand that there is a different approach to trapping out there that really works and is quite devastating. I know that it works and works well, and that's all that matters to me! I don't have to convince myself, but I do like to help others understand this. Good luck with your training, and whatever you do, do it to the best of your abilities! That is what really matters anyway, right?
You're falling for the "only extended arms can be trapped" argument. I used to give it credence. Not any more. I've literally been shown the error of my ways. It doesn't matter how close you hold your elbows in, you can still be trapped by someone who knows what he is doing. This falacy comes from the fact that some people never move beyond "reference point trapping". That's a decent starting place, but you can't stay there. I've held me elbows close in and was still trapped by someone who told me he was about to trap me. And of course I have to add in my "maybe it's just me" disclaimer. I'm sure this would never work against someone as awesome as you. In the Lennox Lewis picture it should be quite obvious how Lewis could trap this guy if he wanted to. (Pak da against the right elbow comes immediately to mind. He could also use jut sao to control the left arm while simultaneously applying a sliding leverage strike shutting down both arms and hitting at the same time). Of course it's not necessary as his opponent has "mentally" shut down. Here's another example of a boxer defending but still "with it".
And here's the caption:
ADVANCED GUARD: a fighter can afford to lie on the ropes when he's as defensively adept as Pretty Boy.
I'll leave possible trapping options as a reader exercise.
Jack,
I have to disagree with you analysis about speed versus control. Control (aka good strategy) can be used to beat a faster opponent just like speed can be used to beat a stronger opponet. (Scissors - paper - rock). Let's move out of the realm of fighting for a minute. Are you old enough to remember the great "Lakers - Celtics" rivalry of the 80s? The Lakers were known for their "run and gun" offense and could quickly run up huge leads on their opponents. But the Celtics had a way to "slow the game down", mess up the Lakers rhythm, and whittle that lead down to nothing. This used to really tick Laker fans (like myself) off. But it worked. The same thing holds true for fighting. If you know what you're doing you can slow a fight down and totally take someone out of their game.
Now for the "knees" part of your argument. Ok folks, we need to put this thread in the record books. This is the FIRST time that I know of that the anti-trapping side has used the "But they're just boxers. We're martial artists!" argument. Ok, back to the picture of boxers in the red and blue trunks where one boxer has good control of the other. Who's in the better position to throw a knee strike? Big hint, it's not the guy in the blue shorts.
Regards,
John M. Drake
This message has been edited by jdrake on Mar 25, 2004 12:14 PM This message has been edited by jdrake on Mar 25, 2004 12:13 PM
I've heard of "Trapping Legs" but never learned it or seen it, I think. Has anyone every done this and is it taught in Jun Fan JKD? Could you explain a simple technique...
Nice post Lamar. There is nothing more I can add to my argument. I agree that we can only do to the best of are abilities. Unfortunately for me, untill I can find someone to show me how to do it properly i.e. apply it on me, I am still not entirely convinced. Maybe one day I will have the pleasure of training with you, who knows.
Hi John, I am possibly not old old enough to remember the rivalries of celti and the lakers I do not know, but mainly I would not remember because I am English and Basketball is not that big here.
I appreciate that tactics and various forms of play are useful in a fight, but I still prefer footwork for appropriate position and a non stop attack (I mean strikes).
As to your boxers, I would be stupid to get into symantics over a photo, but if you think the guy in blue has no options (Knees was just one example) then you need to reasses your training.
Oh thank you for point out my error, I should never have implied Boxing was not a martial art, what I meant was that boxing has too many rules when compared to freestyle or real NHB martial artists.
Nice "straw man" argument. In case you didn't know a "straw man" argument is where you put words in your opponents mouth and argue against them.
Did I ever say the guy in the blue shorts had "no options"? Nope. And you know that. I said the guy in the red shorts was in a better position to throw knee strikes then the guy in the blue. If you know anything about Muy Thai kickboxing you will know that MT kickboxers prefer to gain control and THEN throw the knee. Sure they might throw "flying knees" ect., but I'm talking about their preference! Now back to the pick. Sure the guy in the blue shorts has an option of throwing a knee, but from the position of control that the guy in the red shorts has he could immediately shut down such an attempt. And if you can't see that then YOU are the one who needs to re-evaluate your training.
Regards,
John M. Drake
This message has been edited by jdrake on Mar 26, 2004 12:35 PM This message has been edited by jdrake on Mar 26, 2004 11:44 AM
Trapping is like Lamar has said its a by product to keep hitting. And say as you are punching you are also returning the punch back. So even at this point the trap just follows the retreating arm. To delay a reaction. You can trap to gain entry. Trap to alter deflection. Trap to keep an opening. But you allways hit when you can trap when you trap. That simple. You dont say ok Im going to trap. NO you just do it in a flash of time while you are also doing something else such as working on hitting. And yes leg traps can come into play in the clinch real easy. You trap the leg go to a take down or off balance depending on what is happening. Now in the ring sure traps may not be as effective. But on the streets they can play a good role. Anything is skill level based. The more skills your opponent has the less somethings work. But trapping never was an attack tool. Its allways been a removal tool and a delay tool. Remove the obstruction. Delay a counter move. Even at entry the gaurd is removed to strenghen the entry. But just as parries. When skill level improves yopu slip and hit sdlkip and clinch sliup and kick slip evade ect. Not so much parry and strike. It takes awhile to get good just at hitting. So it takes awhile to get good at traps. The less you complicate the more effective you get. Just like there are many JuJITSU moves but there are a few that work well most of the time. and some that work some times. The most common used are best to apply the others do when you can. So If you can not trap dont if you can do it when you do it. But dont think because you can not every one can not.
I was never taught many leg traps. The most effective ones that I use are, after you've entered from the fighting measure, you place your lead foot next to theirs to prevent them from kicking. You can also from this position, press your leg down into their knee which hurts and causes them to stumble back a bit which gives you a chance to insert a possible straightblast.
I havn't read much of these posts because I was never very interested in the topic. However, I will give my two cents.
Trapping is nothing more then the removemal of a limb (bypassing your opponents gate/guard/whatever you want to call it) to continue with an attack. Structure breaking may occur if you're lucky. Fancy trapping drills like hubud, chi sao, sambrada, etc. only stay fancy during the actual drill. Even trapping while sparring becomes much less "fancy" when in a real situation. You won't see what you would when two master Wing Chun guys are sparring. You'll see a quick removal of an obstruction and then a contiunation with an attack.
The fact that trapping isn't displayed in MMA events is basically the only solid arguement anti-trapper's seem to have. But is it because these fighters don't know how to trap? Or can't trap effectivly? NO! It's because they don't train trapping!! How often do you see a Wing Chun or JKD guy in the octagon. Yes, there were a couple but these obviously in-experienced fighters should not be taken as the gospel truth of what their arts represent and if they work or not.
Trapping isn't shown in MMA events, does that mean trapping doesn't work? Very many people on this forum admit it works. Why would they lie? What's the point of glorifying something that should be discarded? Everyone bashes fancy techniques like jumping, spinning, 1080 degree butterfly kicks. Because everyone knows (including the people who love trapping) that these movements have very little merit in real combat.
Trapping works for people. It works for me, it works for Lamar, and it works for anyone else who trains it enough. It should definitely not be the bread and butter of your arsenal, but it still plays an important role should you choose to use it. If you don't like it, then don't use it, but stop bickering over it's effectiveness when people seem to be able to pull it off (whether that's on camera or not).
Btw, drills like chi sao improve more then just your trapping, but your sensitivty as well. Just like stick sparring and stick drills, they don't just train your weapon combat, but your reflex's, timing and coordination as well. If anyone has ever seen video's of stick fighters sparring empty hand (Dog Brothers are a great example), you'll see how amazingly fast and coordinated they are. Drills must be looked at for the attributes they give you along with the application of the actual technique in real combat.
This message has been edited by Masamune_77 on Mar 27, 2004 8:07 PM
They (MMA fighters) don't train trapping for a reason. It's just not high percentage.
Wing Chun or JKD guys aren't GOING to appear in the octogon because they'd get their a sses kicked. Surely after what now, 11 years you'd THINK that you'd have had a few more practitioners enter these events and SHOW THE WORLD. Unfortunately, we're still waiting for one to step up. No one has and I'm betting, no one will.
