Which one do you prefer, Orthodox or Southpaw?
I mix the two sometimes, but I think I prefer a strong rear hand.

I've heard the strongest weapon forward theory of JKD.
But despite all its advantages southpaw seems to leave me lacking any real power punches.
I would always favour a rear right hand to knock someone out...

Both are equally important, both should be equally trained. I prefer south paw, equilizes power in your hands, no matter what the rear will always be strong.

I like using both sides. I think the "Orthadox" stance comes more natural then the "Unorthadox" side. But I train both sides equally.

Phases ®

There will always be slight differences in power between hands. However if you are finding that one stance is leaving you without punching power, then it means you do not know how to punch properly. I would perhaps go discuss this with your instructor.

I am assuming you do JKD and therefor are training to be a freestylist, thus it suprises me that you even ask this question. Southpaw/orthodox are set forms; for a freestylist both hands should be as capable as the other. This is one of my problems with traditional western boxing.

Question everything, Know nothing.

My right is stronger than my left.
My rear hand is stronger than my front.

So logically a right rear hand will always be my strongest punch.

And lo and behold it is.

I find in southpaw that the rear left hand is only ever OK, not great.

However based on everyone's posts you are all obviously ambidextrous, and fight just as well in both stances, with no preference at all.
Good for you.

You seem to be forgetting that a punches power should not come from the arm, but rather the entire body. The only punch that is much weaker when done with the lead is the jab. However, once the jab is well developed it can be just as powerful as a cross or hook.

You think that a jab can be as powerful as a cross?

A jab is useful, but boxers do not knock each other out very often with jabs.

Maybe boxers forget that a punch's power should not come from the arm, but rather the entire body?

Bloke, you said, "However based on everyone's posts you are all obviously ambidextrous, and fight just as well in both stances, with no preference at all."

I trained in Kick Boxing 1 yr before I decided to join Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do. In Kick Boxing, (as you know) uses an Orthodox lead. When I joined JKD, I knew nothing about using an Unorthodox stance. My muscle memory was confused and uncoordinated and it took me about 6 months of consistent training before I became comfortable with the Unorthodox lead. I wasn’t naturally ambidextrous, it comes with the training. Now, I can use Kick Boxing in an Unorthodox and Orthodox lead and I can use both leads in my Jun Fan JKD. I think learning to become ambidextrous is one of the greatest skills that a JKD man learns in his training. This skill can be used in everyday life and if you do use it, your JKD will become that much better, and vice versa.



Phases ®

I have to admit I am surprised!

I had assumed that everyone would train both ways but have a definite favourite.

Instead everyone is symmetrical, and I'm the odd one out!

If you are unsuccessful with the Unorthodox lead (After intense training) and you find that your Orthodox lead is better, then that is YOUR expression of Jeet Kune Do. There is no right or wrong way; there is only your way... Use the lead that you can use well that inflicts the most punishment on to your opponent(s).

Phases ®

"You think that a jab can be as powerful as a cross?

A jab is useful, but boxers do not knock each other out very often with jabs.

Maybe boxers forget that a punch's power should not come from the arm, but rather the entire body?"

When I say jab, I don't mean a boxing jab, I mean a straight lead jab. The straight lead can acquire knock out power.

Hi Bloke,

It almost sounded like you took offense for a moment there. I did not intend that, merely to suggest that your training is lacking. As has already been pointed out power comes from the knowledge of your body not your arm strength. Becoming symetrical is a matter of the mind over body. If one side is stronger than the other, make the weak side strong. Work it untill it is symetrical. I went to a Kickboxing/wing chun club none of them could work out if I was left or right handed. It is simply a matter of practice.

As to a jab not having knock out power, actually if done with skill it does. Mohammed Ali had a famously powerful jab. He knocked this guy out with a jab, people thought the fight was fixed, but replay showed the truth. He knew how to punch.

Question everything, Know nothing.

I'm sorry but I think the weight of evidence is with me on this one guys.
A jab or even a straight lead is not as powerful as a cross.

Ali (known as the greatest of all time!) was famous for his jab.
And you say he knocked someone out with a jab only once!

Other fighters have knocked people out with jabs/straight leads, but it is the exception.

The cross/straight rear gets KO's time after time, in many different kinds of competition, because it is more powerful.

You obviously havn't developed your jab enough. I don't give a sh!t about Ali, his jab was famous for being lightning fast and used as a great stinger, not for the power. However, I'm using my info from personal experience, my jab is about as powerful as my cross right now, and I know plenty of people who are the same way. Ask any experienced JKD guy on this site and they'll tell you the same thing. The thing about the jab is it's the hardest punch to achieve good power with, I suggest you continue practicing and eventually it will generate insane power.

Masamune,
I'm still not convinced, but that's just a difference of opinion.

However I don't appreciate you implying that just because I disagree with you that I don't know what I'm talking about...

You claim that my opinion is based on an underdeveloped jab.
I could have argued that you had lousy rear hand strikes.
But I didn't.

I stated my case with evidence, you said you didn't give a sh!t about it.

You say that if I ask any experienced JKD guy they would agree with you.
That is basically just playing the "everyone-agrees-with-me" card to win a discussion.

Do you think that I've never trained with an experienced JKD instructor?
The club I trained out of in London has two full instructors under Dan Inosanto, and nine other JKD instructors from various martial arts backgrounds.

Disagree with me by all means.
But I suspect that dismissing my opinions may be slightly premature.

I think you cause more bad habits by switching back and forth between leads. It's better to pick one and work with it for several years before trying others. That's not just my opinion, but the opinion of most real (pro) fighters anywhere.

You can make the jab as powerful as the cross by changing your stance a little.


-John

Look, Ali uses the boxing jab, which is very different from a straight lead.

My arguement that so many agree with me is weak!? Ummm... ok then. So that makes you one of those people who has it his way or the highway even if 100 people tell him he's wrong. So many people have felt the power a jab can generate (you can ask them for yourself bro), yet I must be wrong!

Now I'll use a VERY credible example, Bruce Lee! His students said they felt the same, if not more power in his jab then his cross.

How do you think the one-inch punch works? It's a demonstration that power doesn't have to come from a large distance. And there's obviously a helluva lot of power behind it.

Remember that a boxing jab uses nothing more then hip twist. Straight lead uses the bow body mechanic, the falling forward thrust, internal structure and alignment, and lastly hip twist.

Checkmate.

Hi John. I respectfully disagree with your statement. OK, pro fighters in the west train with one lead for a while, but pro fighters in the east do not. Muay Thai fighters from Thai land are reknowned for their ability to switch leads without a thought. This is because they train symmetrically straight off.

Hi Bloke. No one here really cares if you feel that you are right, it is just advice with give you. You can choose to think about it and try to understand how to develop real power in all your punches or you can not. No one is insulting your ability.

I too have a lead that is as powerful the the rear, does that mean all my punches are weak? Work on it and see you may find it helps you.

Question everything, Know nothing.

To Masamune,
it's not that I'm ignoring the weight of public opinion.
As I said before I've trained with eleven different JKD instructors and this is the first time I've heard this argument.

I know Bruce Lee had a very powerful lead, (and favoured a southpaw stance).
But very few fighters from JKD seem to have translated his theory on this particular area into competition success in any area of martial arts.

Where are all the straight lead knockouts in high profile competitions?
Why aren't professional fighters lining up to fix their weak jabs?
Are all the arts that have stronger rear hands just wrong?

To Jack,
masamune did question my ability, but I'm sure I'll get over it!
I didn't accuse anyone of bad punches, and I posted to say that I hadn't!!!
So, did you read the thread or just side with the guy you'd heard of?

(PS typing "checkmate" never won an argument... ever!)

I can understand your point Jack about the symetrical leads in Thai boxing. One thing about those guys -- they aren't the best punchers in the world (of course, there are exceptions to the rule). Boxers generally have better "hands" than do Thai boxers. This is because they spend more time working on fewer tools. Because of the punching aspect, they maintain a fairly strict lead, as I'm sure I don't have to tell you.

We use a more symetrical lead as well. However, in development of one's primary punching attacks/combos, I still prefer ONE hand to be my jabbing hand and the other to be my cross hand. That takes time to develop to a high degree.

Of course, people here must actually TEST these things themselves and find out what is right. This is what I have found to be right for me, as well as a thundering herd of other folks. But, don't take my word for it of course, train it yourselves and draw your own conclusions.

Hello all,

I agree with JohnK's assessment. Perfect one, but train both. From a JKD point of view it's important to understand "short range power". You want knockout power from your lead strike. This didn't start with Bruce Lee. Jack Dempsy talked about this in his book. Even though he was fighting "orthodox" his lead had knockout power.

http://stickgrappler2.tripod.com/kbox/dempsey.html

But you need to be able to work from both sides because you never know when you may get attacked from your "weak" side. Also if JKD guys always spar other JKD guys who are always in right lead what do you do when you go up against a non-JKD guy who's probably in a left lead? Fighting unmatched leads is a different ballgame then matched.

Regards,

John M. Drake

"Where are all the straight lead knockouts in high profile competitions?
Why aren't professional fighters lining up to fix their weak jabs?
Are all the arts that have stronger rear hands just wrong?"

You rarely see JKD guys in competitions, I'm pretty sure JKD is the only style that uses straight leads. You say you aren't ignorant when your displaying blatant signs of it. Basically, you refuse to believe, and you refuse to learn. You've found out something incredible that you never knew existed, and since you never knew it existed, it must not exist right? Either you're jelous, or you're placing way too much belief and trust in competitive fighting as being the full totallity and only thing close to real combat and martial art application, where nothing else new in martial arts may spawn. Well guess what, as with everything else in life, new things are constantly being found in martial arts. And just because you don't see it in boxing or UFC (both places where the martial art focus's on rear hand attacks as the power hit, which btw I never said was wrong, and does not use straight leads) doesn't mean it doesn't exist. As for your JKD instructors, well either they weren't credible or you're just lying. F*ck, ask Lamar if you want to, I guaruntee he'll tell you how powerful a straight lead can be, and everyone knows he's the real deal. You say my arguements were weak, yet the only arguement you seem to come up with is about tournament fighting and your supposed 11 JKD instructors. I now have a second person agreeing with me, their will be more to come should you choose to ask. If public opinion had no merit, well then so much for democracy, so much for the majorities opinion, etc.

"(PS typing "checkmate" never won an argument... ever!)"

Way to have a sense of humour (sarcasm).

I knew that you would accuse me of lying, masamune.
It was only a matter of time.

Obviously we could never convince each other without evidence.
That is why I keep bringing up competition fighters.
Competitions are verifiable rather than hearsay.
I wanted to back up my opinions with something you could check for yourself.


But you don't really believe in anything I post regardless of content.

To paraphrase, either:
1) my instructors are not credible
or
2)I am lying

Here is the list of instructors I am refering to:
http://www.bobbreen.co.uk/AcademyInstructorProfiles.asp

You'll notice (if you bother to read the list) two full instructors under Inosanto, a former British MMA champion/former world stick fighting champion, a former european muay thai champion, a former British chinese kickboxing champion and several others all qualified to instruct in JKD.

You'll also notice there are 13 people on the list, but I haven't trained under Alex Turnbull, also Ian Oliver is a boxing coach I worked with so I didn't include them when listing JKD coaches. Hence 11.

Obviously there are also black belt level students at the club who occaisionally teach, I didn't mention them when listing my teachers as they are hard to verify.

In this entire thread I have not knowingly insulted you, I have only disagreed with you.

As well as everthing that you have implied about my character, you have critised the quality of my technique, the credibility of my instructors, and you have called me a liar.

Strangely, I can't think of anything more to say to you right now.

I never knew there was such a thing as black belts in Jeet Kune Do, or belts at all in Jeet Kune Do. I thought it was ranked like Apprentice Instructor, Phase 1 Instructor, Full Instructor, and Senior Instructor.

This is the last thing I'm going to say: I can pull up a site listing JKD instructors and say I've learned under all of them as well.

But I'm through wasting my time. Your right, I'm wrong, happy? I really don't care, I'm not going to change your pathetically closed mind. Our arguement is going in circles and will never be resolved, this is the biggest problem with internet forums: the morons on it don't listen and think they're know-it-alls. You want solid proof? Go find a REAL JKD instructor, or I can even tell you the exact body mechanics for the straight lead if you want. Practice it for a year and come back. Then tell me if it's still weak, cause you obviously don't know the first thing about the proper execution of that punch. Or, you can keep training in your crystalized way of thinking. I on the other hand, will continue to evolve.

LMFAO, I never even went to that site. But after seeing, "5th degree black belt in JF/JKD," I nearly died of laughter. Well that just proves your instructors are total fakes.

Hi John K. nice reposte. Thai fighters, although not reknowed for their boxing was the easiest example to site as i can verify my claim easiest.

I appreciate your method encourages you to train both but becoming expert with one. My left differs from my right in what it can and cannot do, this is just nature. However with the symmetrical training i have had, against sparring partners one orthodox training I have a clear advantage.

If I were to now focus on one side, I would feel vunerable on the other against my sparring partners who also train symmetrically. I look at this like, I have a 90% good 180degree attack the orthodox guy has 100% good 90degree attack. No matter how good he is on one side I can attack the other more easily as he would generally have neglected it. Of course it is not quite so black and white, but hopefully you get my point.

Question everything, Know nothing.

Masamune,
I am pleased that you have decided not to say anything else.

Everyone else,
Bob Breen's Academy in London is a well respected JKD school, and the qualifications of its instructors can easily be checked.

Hello all,

Northbloke wrote:

Where are all the straight lead knockouts in high profile competitions? Why aren't professional fighters lining up to fix their weak jabs? Are all the arts that have stronger rear hands just wrong?

That's a good question. Turning it own it's head why does no car company other than Mazda use the Wankal Rotary engine? It has less moving parts, is quieter than a piston engine, uses no valves and can easily be converted to use hydrogen. Why aren't MacIntosh computers ruling the desktop? Macs have arguably an easier to use user interface. There are no registry problems. Macs are "plug and play" as opposed to "plug and pray". But Macs couldn't take over even during the "MS-Dog" days. Get the point?

There are fighters who have had knockout power in there lead strikes before. Some folks want to ignore Bruce Lee since he didn't fight professionally. Ok, consider Jack Dempsy. He could knock people out with his lead strike. He lamented the fact that many of the boxers after him neglected this part of their training. Now I know what some people may be thinking reading this. "Oh but boxing has evolved so much since then". True, but the human anatomy hasn't. It's a safe bet that a Jack Dempsey lead punch could knock someone out today as easily as it could knock someone out years ago. But what about todays fighters? Do any of them have powerfull lead strikes? Do any of them ever fight power side forward?













Regards,

John M. Drake

J-Drake, thanks for the pics.

I had a question, are there any Right Handed boxers that use Unorthadox Leads (such as JunFan JKD), thru out an entire fight? or are they just "Lefties" that are in THEIR proper stance?





Phases ®

J-Drake, nice pictures (particularly the second one!)

But to explain, my comments about knockouts were part of a discussion/argument about whether the jkd straight lead punch is as powerful as a cross.
It was a very specific disagreement.

That said, I agree that there are too many fighters who neglect more technical aspects of their game in favour of the big hit.

A strong lead is very important, but even so I still favour the orthodox stance, particularly if my kicks take on some of the duties of the jab.

(PS. the wankel rotary engine has always previously had long term reliability problems. I hear Mazda have done a lot of work on this...)

I must admit, you can generate great power in the Orthodox Rear cross. One of the reasons why it's against JFJKD methods of striking is because it's "Telegraphed". I think "Telegraphing" is an over rated subject if you have good timing. The right cross has proven itself, time and again in fights around the world. Even an untrained man favors the Orthodox Rear Right because it's such a natural human response, like throwing a ball. I'm not against this way of punching; JKD just shows you that there is more then 1 way to skin a cat... I guess it's up to the fighter to figure out which is the best way for him/her. Personally, I'm caught between the 2 leads. There are strong and weak points in both ways... So, until I do some more real testing, I don't know which one I favor the most, completely.

"Prince Naseem" was an odd Boxer. He used different leads thru out an entire fight, a very unorthodox fighter, indeed.


(Write "JFJKD" in your Microsoft Word program and do a spell check and tell me what came up. LoL )


Phases ®

Hello all,

Chris Byrd (the guy in the last series of pics) is right handed. At least that's what I've picked up from Robert Ochoa (he posts on Bax's and Big Sean's forum as Zanshin). Robert O has actually trained with Chris Byrd.

Now with the Roy Jones Jr, in the first pic he's in a right lead, in the next couple of pics he's in a left lead. But look at the amount of power he's generating with his lead strikes! Those strikes have GOT to hurt. Anyway the point for me isn't "can I make my lead strike as powerfull as a cross" but rather "can I generate knockout power with my lead strike". The least strike is easier to connect with, so if I can knock someone out with a lead strike I can end the fight sooner.

Regards,

John M. Drake

"Anyway the point for me isn't "can I make my lead strike as powerful as a cross" but rather "can I generate knockout power with my lead strike"."

Totally agree.

(Just wasn't the argument I was having when I made my post!)

I think fist this thread says hand lead left or right. JKD develops strong side forward. Im left handed. I train in a left lead. And also switch for teahing purposes. Strong sode forward puts a solid punch in at the close point of striking. Then helps put a little better power to the weak side . By putting it in the rear. For more travel and body action . But no where is the lead by its self the most powerful strike in JKD. Sure it has good power can finish a job. But the cross the hook can develop more power. Yes a JKD lead normaly has more power then a boxers jab. But it is performed different. AND commits more. THe jabs finds distance sets up other strikes and keeeps distance. The lead sets up the other tools . slams the door shut. But ITS just part of the tool chest. not the whole chest. Its better to get good at several hands then improve them all. AND as for Jack Dempsy well He was an old style boxer. ANd old style boxing was geared different then today. I think it was better. As you had to punch and learn to keep cover and hit hard. Today there is more movement to evade And less power thrown .But repeative strikes Do there job. Alot of todays boxers If the old style boxers cloud cut them off in the ring I do not think they could weather the punishment given. Buts that is my opinion And We all have our own idea.