I know that a well-rounded martial artist should be equally trained in all ranges. However, everyone has a favourite.

What is your favourite range to fight from? Kicking, punching, trapping, clinching or ground?

I'm a huge fan of the clinch. I drill it constantly, placing an emphasis on striking and the use of your in-fighting tools, but I equally train takedowns, and anti-takedowns.

This is why a lot of grapplers have a tough time taking me down. Because I train the clinch so much. And even though the clinch is takedown central, I still prefer to fight standing, Thai style, with my in-fighting tools when in it, instead of going to the ground.

I've finished many fights with the clinch, most of them with the use of my in-fighting tools.

What is your favourite range to fight from? Kicking, punching, trapping, clinching or ground?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My favorite is being where you can't get hit.

So, are you saying you can't kick in the puching range?
Or trap in the kicking range? or punch in the Clinch?

Hmmmmm, interesting I always thought what you call ranges are techniques

I think in three ranges long, medium and close and anything goes...

Mr. Smart@ss

You sure are a smart ass.

You know what I meant, you didn't have to be the smart ass that you are and make a completely unecessary post. And if you're too stupid to understand, I meant what range are you most comfortable with and prefer to fight in?

And no, you can't use any technique in any range. For example, in-fighting tools and trapping are physically impossible when in kicking range, unless your arms are extremely long.

So if you catch and immobilize a guys kick would that would not be considered a trap? please define trap?

by the way your wrong

Smart@ss

No I don't consider that a trap. To me a trap is the bypassing of a persons guard in order to execute a highly accurate attack with nothing to stop it along the way. Catching a guys leg is stand-up grappling in my book. A leg trap can be something like a foot stomp without the release of pressure, to make sure the foot your pressing on doesn't kick you, and this CANNOT be done from kicking range. Lastly, trapping is offensive, not defensive.

So YOU are wrong... moron.

Smart@ss yes,... moron? :O

You know, name calling is just plain wrong.
yes sir,... wrong indeed

I've been down that road of the 4 ranges before.
Did you also know there is also a 5th (if you want to include psychological range how to un nerve your opponent)

But hey who gives a cr@p?

anyhoooo...

A trap is a trap, an immobilization to trap an opponents limb
... that simple. nothing more nothing less

Who said anything about being passive?

Smart@ss

ps. your still wrong
Lamar want to sound in on this one?

"You know, name calling is just plain wrong.
yes sir,... wrong indeed

I've been down that road of the 4 ranges before.
Did you also know there is also a 5th (if you want to include psychological range how to un nerve your opponent)"

Philosophical jibberish when one can't come up with a better arguement, nothing more.

"But hey who gives a cr@p?

anyhoooo...

A trap is a trap, an immobilization to trap an opponents limb
... that simple. nothing more nothing less

Who said anything about being passive?"

A trap is the removement of an obstruction, not the catching of a limb. Sure it can be if you look at from a literal point of view. But it's not by the way it's defined in Wing Chun and JKD.

"ps. your still wrong
Lamar want to sound in on this one?"

Oh no!!!! I am going to be completely raped online and proven wrong because an instructor sais I am. Guess what, I couldn't give a sh!t if Bruce Lee said I was wrong, because what gives him the authority to say so? We're all humans, certificates and label's must be forgotten at this moment. Bruce is not the creator of JKD, JKD has been around since humanity was established. BL is simply the teacher of a "human martial art" and a specific way of how it works, with Jeet Kune Do as it's official name. That doesn't mean JKD is the only way, it also doesn't mean that JKD's trapping is the only way to trap.

We are arguing about terminology differences and this is utterly pointless. What you consider a trap I don't, does that mean what we're doing is wrong? No, it means we have different names for different techniques, and as BL said: You should not fuss over names.

However, this does not excuse the fact that not all techniques can be used in all ranges. For example, how can an in-fighting tool be used in kicking range smart ass?

We are arguing about terminology differences and this is utterly pointless. What you consider a trap I don't, does that mean what we're doing is wrong? No, it means we have different names for different techniques, and as BL said: You should not fuss over names.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Very true, well said,

But it is your concept of range I am being a questioning,
just as I had once believed in it (four ranges)
So I challenge that to give a different perspective

If I did come across as provoking it was because I was not sure if your post was to boast about your skills or to actualy ask a humble question.
I mean a chunk of your post was how 'lots of grapplers could not take you down' and 'how you ended many fights'

You could have asked the question without pumping your ego, was that part of your post neccessary?

anyways

You can use some tools in the long range that you can use in short range

always
smart@ss

I know that in reality you must use, and will have to use all ranges to your disposal. However, that doesn't mean you can't have a preference.

As for "pumping my ego." Whether you believe it or not, I didn't say those things for the sake of bragging, and if you don't believe what happened to me (grappling, clinching, etc.), well I don't really care. I said that to demonstrate why I value the clinch so much, especially when the martial arts world today is filled with dangerous, and powerful grapplers. Yes, grapplers have a hard time taking me down. Why? Not because I'm some super-human striker, but because I train in grappling a lot but prefer striking. Clinching is after all, part of grappling, and a big part might I add. Mike Descado said it best: "The best way to defend against a grappler is to learn how to grapple." Where are grapplers strong in, at least while standing? The clinch! And does that mean I'm untouchable? Hell no! I never said I was. That also doesn't mean they can't take me down, I'm just saying it's not easy when dealing with a person who spends so much time training the clinch. Are you jelous of this? Why would I brag to a bunch of people I've never, and probably will never meet?

As for fights, well what can I say, I've been in a lot of fights. The whole reason I got into JKD was because of this. And I never said I won them all and am some supreme god of ass kicking. In fact I got my ass beatin down many times. I admit it, and have nothing wrong with admitting it. But I've also won many fights, especially after JKD.

I am not a expert by any means either but i agree with your post about the clinch. I think if you train the clinch enough your going to be real comfortable in the range i think the reason alot of untrained people get taken to the ground is because they freeze and dont know what to do. The average guy on the street is going to try to grab you and take you to the ground because natural human reaction when they get scared is to hold on. I like working the clinch also because it teaches you to use your in close weapons like your headbutts, elbows and knees. And also it really helps to build a good deal of balance alot of people dont have great balance or dont at least know how to counter balance your weight along with the person who is holding on to you trying to take you to the ground. Then again on the otherside there are just some bad a** grapplers no matter how good your balance your going to the ground. Well that is my poin of view on the clinch.

I find it amusing how easily Masamune/berserk/alec loses his cool

---------------
jiyasa
naz
http://nazforum.vze.com
http://nazworkshop.vze.com

Anyway to answer the question. My favourite range has got to be punching. Close in fighting but not as close as the clinch. Mostly because my hands are my fastest weopons and I have most of my options available to me without much trouble.

Question everything, Know nothing.

Masume wrote:

====================================================
A trap is the removement of an obstruction, not the catching of a limb. Sure it can be if you look at from a literal point of view. But it's not by the way it's defined in Wing Chun and JKD.
====================================================

Removing an obstruction is certainly one use of a trap. But is it the only one?

Also if you don't believe that immobilizing a limb is "trapping" then what do you call "hand immobilization attack"?

Here's another question. When anybody here spars are you consious of when you move from "kicking" range to "punching" range? If you can lunge and punch from 6 feet out where does punching range start?

Regards,

John M. Drake

Excellent points John !!!

John, you are continuing to argue over terminology differences. But tell me John, how do you plan to immobilize a persons hand for a long enough period of time in combat anyway? The removement of an obstruction IS a brief immobilization.

And yes, like I said in my previous posts I am aware that in reality there's really only one range, either you're in it or you're not. However, you nit-picking bastard, I was just curious as to what people enjoy training the most, or to put it in other words, what techniques do they like the most (long range, close range, etc.).

Oh and I find it really amusing how Naz/The Bruce Lee Wannabe/The Down Under Terminator can bring his skinny, twig ass to this forum. Preach about being the sh!t, when everyone knows he's just a nerd who's watched too many Bruce Lee movies, and still continue to post after being horribly embarressed by a clip that looked like two mentally retarded kids trying to spar TKD style.

"Philosophical jibberish when one can't come up with a better arguement, nothing more."

How was that philosophical?

Masamune always uses the old "it's a terminology difference" when he's losing the argument.

---------------
jiyasa
naz
http://nazforum.vze.com
http://nazworkshop.vze.com

Hello Masamune,

You act like you're under attack. Did I attack you in anyway? Did I even contradict you? Did I do anything other than ask you questions? For instance I said:

"Removing an obstruction is one use of a trap. But is it the only use?"

Now if you truly believe there is only one use of a trap then you could simply say "Yes. I believe there is only one use." Isn't that easy? (Of course there is more than one use, but if you wish to limit yourself then that's fine. )

Now you asked the question:

But tell me John, how do you plan to immobilize a persons hand for a long enough period of time in combat anyway?

My response? How long do you need to immobilize? And what does that have to with whether or not a trap is JUST used to remove an obstruction? Ok, for the sake of argument I'll go through a possible trapping sequence.

Step 1: I start punching high to the face.
Step 2: I immediately switch to a low line punch (PIA)
Step 3: Opponent blocks low
Step 4: I lop and punch high

(Now before someone pipes in with "that will never work" I've done this against a live resisting opponent who didn't know what I was about to do.)

Now, at step 4 was I "removing an obstruction"? What obstruction? The high line was already open. So are there any advantages to trapping here? Let's say this guy is fast. After all he followed my PIA down. What's to stop him from following it back up? A trap perhaps? Any other advantages? What about the ability to "pull" my opponent into my punch with the lop sao? Now are there any disadvantages? Say if the trap "fails"? Well I still have my high line punch right? And even if I don't get a good lock on his lead arm but I just slow it down a bit, won't that still leave the high line open a bit longer improving my changes of scoring with the punch?

On to ranges. Again I didn't attack, only asked you questions. If you are conscious of when you move from kicking range to punching range then good for you. Or is it? Do you define punching range as where you can punch from or as where your opponent can punch from? Is punching range when facing a Kareem Abdul Jabbar different from punching range of facing a Bruce Lee? Is explosive footwork part of the equation?

On being a "nitpicking bastard".

Weren't you the one that said "A trap is the removement of an obstruction, not the catching of a limb. Sure it can be if you look at from a literal point of view. But it's not by the way it's defined in Wing Chun and JKD."

Do you think there is only one source for how things are defined in Wing Chun and JKD? If you do please share it. I'm not at all sure about the definition of trapping myself. I've seen so many different definitions, opinions ect from Wing Chun and JKD people whose opinions I respect. Individual techniques are easier to quantify. If I use lop sao for something other than "removing an obstruction" does that mean I'm using lop sao for something other than trapping?

Regards,

John M. Drake

When Masanoobie isn't telling everyone about cracking a few heads with his Extendo (what is that anyway? a sex toy?) he gave away, or knocking people out with high kicks to the head or surviving the mean ass streets of Toronto...and assuming people may be jealous of him for his typing descriptions of his skills.

I am sure he/she is a really nice guy once calm

Smart@ass

Personally, I fight in three ranges:

1. Kickboxing range: Punches, Kicks.

2. Clinch range.

3. Grappling.

Naz, *sigh*, go spar with your TKD students.


John, I called you a nit-picking bastard because you were nit-picking. I apologize for calling you a bastard, I admit that wasn't necassary. However, I asked a simple question, and got a massive assault of bullsh!t and arguements for my answer.

I simply wanted to know what ranges you guys liked to fight in. Or to be specific, what techniques do you like to use that are most commonly used in specific ranges (i.e. kicks from long range, elbows in trapping range and clinch, etc.).

Let's drop the whole trapping thing because we obviously have our own opinions that won't be changed. FYI, I consider trapping any means of bypassing a persons guard to land your attack, instead of trying to flow around it. This means you can trap the guard itself for the most stable hit possible, not necessarily having to wait for your initial attack to be stopped, of course this is a big part of trapping as well.

I simply don't consider catching a persons leg a trap. What you described, yes, I do consider it that trap. Removement of an obstruction is an immobolization, when you referred to it I thought you meant grabbing a persons arm and continuing to hold it. Technically, you can only trap one way, removing the obstruction, or immobolizing it as you like to call it, but that catagory is HUGE so I'm not limiting myself to one way, I'm "limiting" myself to one terminology.


Smart Ass, why do you have a hard time believing that I get in fights? And that I win fights? Once again, I never said I've won every fight I've been in, and I've already mentioned how I've had my ass kicked many times. You don't think Toronto's rough huh? Well if you kept up with Canadian news you'd realize there's been a shooting every week for the last while where I live (Scarborough to be specific). Why do people have the misconception that Canada is some crime-free paradise? AND WHY WOULD I BE TRAINING IN JKD IF I DIDN'T FIGHT, YOU IDIOT!


Mike, CONGRATULATIONS! You're the first person to actually answer my question. You're the first person with enough brains to realize what my question was about. Thank you!

Hello Masamune,

I really wasn't nitpicking, but if you want to believe that fine.

Now I'll nitpick. Mike actually did NOT answer your question. You asked "what is your favorite range to fight from" and then proceeded to list what you see are the ranges, kicking, punching, trapping, clinching or ground. Instead of answering your question, Mike proceeded to tell you that, from his perspective, there are really only 3 ranges; kickboxing range (which includes kicking and punching), clinching range and grappling range. He didn't say anything about what was his "favorite".

One more thing. Just because you start a thread doesn't mean you can "dominate" it. People can take points and go whereever they wish.

Now to really answer your question since Mike didn't. I don't have a favorite range. I don't think anyone should have a favorite range.

Regards,

John M. Drake

You're right about Mike, I misread his post. But at least he still gave me an answer most related to the topic of this thread.

When did I ever say that I'm the god of this thread?? Your "domination" remark makes absolutely no sense. Sure everyone has the right to their opinion, but when I ask a simple and what I thought to be a straight-forward question, I want a simple answer. I was asking for people's thoughts and feelings, I did not want to create a debate in this thread. Perhaps I should have asked my question with more emphasis on what I really meant.

Hell, let's put it this way, if you were able to ALWAYS fight or ONLY fight in one range, what would it be? Or, if you could only learn to fight from one range, what would it be? Now do you see what I meant by my question?

I'll only say this much. Range denotes distance. Distance that is relationship to you and your opponent which is then dictated by body types of you and your opponent. At my long range i can't do stuff, but at the same time, within my long range, my opponent can punch me.

Interesting thread...This really is not my forum but I would like to join in if I may.

Some people precieve range as distance from a particular set of tools at disposal (kick,punch,etc)

I am one who believes 'range' is really dictated by your opponents actions.

Where is your opponent trying to get to?

Are they trying to square off?

Are they not squaring off?

To me, JKD is an 'Intercepting' art so my 'favorite' or 'prefered' range to train at the moment, is just outside my opponents but not outside of mine.

Deception of the perception of range is a key factor to make this work properly. This is something you can spend alot of time with and still learn new subtilties in timing, distance and rhythym each time.

This is what I currently enjoy spending time on as far as JKD goes.

It's all good...

My 2.5 cents

Droog.

While it is best that one have no "favorite", the fact is, some are bound to be more proficient in one range than the next. Some might find grappling a natural venture but trapping a foreign science. Or vice versa. Some might be better on there feet rather than there back. Thus, some people are bound to have a "natural favorite". Me? To be completely honest, for training purpose the trapping range is my fav, for the simople fact that it needs more training. That dictates which is my "favorite". Whichever needs the most training. On another note, why the hell is everyone being such a nit-picking, hairsplitting ass? I have read thru this thread and found myself quite amused by this peculiar phenomenon. Is everyone suffering from "fuhquaditis"? Or is it that IDS disease going around (Internet.Dickhead.Syndrome.)
Seriously people, the question was not difficult to understand. I suggest that some of you chill. Why? Becausing chilling is good. And because I said so.

Your Friendly Neighborhood Zub-Zub

Thank god there's at least one down to earth, simple person here (don't take that the wrong way). Props to you Zub!

So many other's take great joy out of over-analyzing the simplest things to death, cutting it into thousands of tiny pieces and viewing it under a microscope. Some of you guys are so wrapped up with all your philosophy, sciences, and calculations, that you forget the simplicity of a lot of things. You find specific, yet little details in questions and begin to disect them mercilessly. Knowledge and truth suffer from too much analysis.

"So many other's take great joy out of over-analyzing the simplest things to death, cutting it into thousands of tiny pieces and viewing it under a microscope."



Its called THINKING you Drama Queen...you should stop playing with your 'Extendo' and try it sometime

And well your at it.... be a little nicer to people...
and they will be nice back

Smart@ss

There's no thinking involved when it comes to obvious and simple things. Are you so stupid that you have to think and contemplate to understand these simple issues? You tell me to be nice yet you act like a total jerkoff to me, you f*cking hypocrite. Guess what? If you're an idiot (you!), I'm not going to be nice!

taken from dictionary.com

11 entries found for range.
range ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rnj)
n.

1.
1. Extent of perception, knowledge, experience, or ability.
2. The area or sphere in which an activity takes place.
3. The full extent covered: within the range of possibilities.
2.
1. An amount or extent of variation: a wide price range.
2. Music. The gamut of tones that a voice or instrument is capable of producing. Also called compass.
3.
1. The maximum extent or distance limiting operation, action, or effectiveness, as of a projectile, aircraft, radio signal, or sound.
2. The maximum distance that can be covered by a vehicle with a specified payload before its fuel supply is exhausted.
3. The distance between a projectile weapon and its target.
4. A place equipped for practice in shooting at targets.
5. Aerospace. A testing area at which rockets and missiles are launched and tracked.
6. An extensive area of open land on which livestock wander and graze.
7. The geographic region in which a plant or animal normally lives or grows.
8. The act of wandering or roaming over a large area.
9. Mathematics. The set of all values a given function may take on.
10. Statistics. The difference or interval between the smallest and largest values in a frequency distribution.
11. A class, rank, or order: The candidate had broad support from the lower ranges of the party.
12. Abbr. Ra. An extended group or series, especially a row or chain of mountains.
13. One of a series of double-faced bookcases in a library stack room.
14. Abbr. R A north-south strip of townships, each six miles square, numbered east and west from a specified meridian in a U.S. public land survey.
15. A stove with spaces for cooking a number of things at the same time.

either way are you saying thanks for the ignorance of some people masamune? I get the impression that you're promoting blind adherence.

OH yeah it's the little things that take you places. It is ALL about the attention to detail.

Oh god! (Rolls eyes, pukes, pukes again)

From this point on, I'm not going to reply to idiots, at least not on this thread.

LS.....you are an ass. I hereby sentence you to be stoned by furry, snaggle-toothed leprachauns. Lets see if the next question YOU post gets answered. Everyone looovvvves to f u c k with somebody until somebody else f u c k s with them. A simple question was asked, what was given in response resembled the Clinton defense during the impeachment: hairsplitting, nitpicking, dodgy responses to a very direct question. Enough with the discertations on the million different possible ways a term could mean. You know what it means to you, and you know what it means to some other people here. The next time I see this happen, I will personally send ninja snack-crackers to devour you in your sleep. Capiche?

How was I an ass? I answered his question directly with another question? I'm just trying to stay OPEN minded. I guess most of you guys haven't heard of fighting measure. if anything because of my stature i'm more akin to close quarter tactics. Then again it all depends on the opponent I'm facing.

Tell me you did not take that post seriously.....*shakes head and laughs* everbody needs to lighten up here.

STOP PUKING! And take f u c king chill pill. They are busting your chops, and you are eating it up.

I tend to take a lot of things seriously. Probably a little too often.

I am hurt Masamue tears role down my soft innocent cheeks you did not notice the fact I was I who actually answered the question first.

Oh the pain.

Oh the pain.

Nobody loves me.

Oh the pain.

Question everything, Know nothing.

Hello everyone,

I was going to let my last post be "it" but I see people calling other people asses and telling others to "quit nitpicking".

"FriendlyGuy" hit it on the head. What some people call "hairsplitting" other people call THINKING! Sometimes the most interesting thing in a thread isn't the initial post, but discussion that flows out of the initial post. That's what I meant when I said don't expect to DOMINATE the thread. My point was quite clear to anyone open to thinking, but I rephrase it. Don't expect others to simply go along with the thread and talk about what YOU want to talk about when there are other interesting topics that can be spun out of it.

I personally found the original question extremely boring. But I found the spin off questions interesting. If it wasn't for the spin off questions I would have ignored the thread. What's your favorite range? Who cares? How do you define range? How do you control it? How do you control distance? I find those questions far more intersting. Droog really hit on these questions. I liked it when he said:

"To me, JKD is an 'Intercepting' art so my 'favorite' or 'prefered' range to train at the moment, is just outside my opponents but not outside of mine."

But to take it further, sometimes you might want to be INSIDE your opponent's range. Say if you have a knife and your opponent has a bat. You want to be inside where the bat is less effective and the knife is deadly.

That said I'll leave you to your boring, "nitpick" free , thought free thread.

Regards,

John M. Drake

Masamune always talks about his amazing skills, his huge number of fights and the ways he won them.

If people ask any questions he loses his temper and calls them moron or stupid.

He ignores and disparages any evidence that doesn't support his case.

He then accuses people of lacking proper martial arts knowledge/training and of being closed-minded to the truth.

This is fine.

The forum seems largely un-moderated and people post what they want to.

People will be how they will.

My favourite range is in front of my keyboard where I can unleash all of my most effective attacks

I still have that black eye from you wasim, when you unleashed your keyboard attacks on me!



---------------
jiyasa
naz
http://nazforum.vze.com
http://nazworkshop.vze.com

gotcha!

ARgh not again!!!

---------------
jiyasa
naz
http://nazforum.vze.com
http://nazworkshop.vze.com

A trap immobilization only within the structure of wingchung. But outside this reference the target might react to some other structure what then is the movement linear or angular. If the opponent is random and does not follow the structure of wingchung i.e runs sideways or react unpredictably not the known structure. Best fighting range is where the opponent is uncomfortable and is weakest at and where he is strongest use another structure that he is familiar with or has knowledge of that line of attack. Random evasive and outside his normal structure of fighting and favourite combinations
needs good sentivity and knowing oneself and reading the opponents strenghts and using another structure that he is not familiar with.
Duh bucket of water into his face ha ha ha.