My friend takes Origanal Jujitsu and i think its mixed with a little karate and Tai Chi, well anyways do you guys think this achully will help as a part of defense besides the bowing and stuff.
Also what are your feelings about Muay Thai as a defense, is that good for stand up game?
Brazillian Jujitsu came directly from original jujitsu so obviously someone can develop solid fighting skills from OJJ.
Yes Muy Thai (among other striking arts) is good for self defense. The best thing about MT fighters is that they train harder and more realisticly than a lot of martial artists.
Like I always say it depends on two people. You and your teacher. If you have a good teacher but you are a bad student you can only ever be ok. If you are a good student but have a bad teacher you can be very good (maybe not the best). If you are lucky enough to have a good teacher and you are a good student than you will go very far indeed.
So original or new none of this matters. It has always come down to instinct.
I hate to swim against the tide, but traditional jujitsu doesn't make many good fighters.
There are some exceptions but trad jj usually falls into the "too-deadly-for-sparring" mindset.
Groundwork is often limited or non-existant.
Breakfalls are emphasised and throws are practised against compliant partners.
Poor weapon defences are also often taught (which can be more harm than good).
Saying that BJJ comes from trad JJ is an over simplification.
Brazilian JuJitsu is closer to an old form of Judo, (but the whole story is an essay of its own!)
There are really just a few things you need to know about grappling for street fighting and they are basically chokes, armbar, kneebar, anklelock, mount, the guard, the side guard, escapes, and take downs. I have had the honor to grapple people in all forms of jujutsu but I like Judo the most. Dr. professor Jigirno kano had taken 3 different kinds of jujitsu and was even invited to learn secret information only allowed to a few before he created Judo in 1902. There is no such thing as a bad grappling art weather it be original jujitsu or Brazilin jujitsu.
Mau Ti, is an excellent training method just below JKD.
This message has been edited by Bushidocfs on Apr 9, 2004 2:20 PM
In 1914 a Japanese Judo and jiu-jitsu master named Mitsuo Maeda (called Count Koma) came to Brazil. In return for help from the Brazilian politician Gastao Gracie, Koma taught jiu-jitsu to Gastao's son Carlos. Carlos in turn taught his brothers (most notably Helio). They went on to further refine the art via constant no-rules competition, developing what is now known as Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.
The Gracie family learned jiu-jitsu from a traditional Japanese jiu-jitsu master. Helio then refined the techniques due to his small size. I would call that "direct". Of course I suppose you could say it was "indirect" since Maeda knew both judo and jiu-jitsu. But then judo itself came directly from traditional Japanese jiu-jitsu.
You're not wrong but...
It all comes down to when Judo split from Jujitsu.
Judo wasn't created to make a sport, Judo (like JKD)was created due to a difference of martial arts philosophy.
Judo rules were supposed to allow sparring without injury.
The prevailing wisdom at the time was the to have as many "deadly" moves as possible and to learn through kata without sparring.
Naturally Kodokan Judo won a lot of competitions because they had made the rules that were used, and some other schools, wanting to share the success, joined their style.
But the point of the ramble is this, the jujitsu schools that joined the kodokan were the schools that believed in the merits of sparring versus techniques that tended to cause permanent injuries.
Judo wasn't based on jujitsu and started from scratch. Judo left jujitsu taking a lot of prominant schools with it.
The schools that actively wrestled in classes.
Maeda was jujitsu, then judo and was a kodokan representative. He taught a heavily groundfighting version of the arts.
Gracie Jujitsu is based on rolling and wrestling every session and actively competing in competitions, (Judo does this, but Trad Jujitsu does not).
Modern Trad Jujitsu is mostly (though not entirely) made up of schools that don't actually fight.
I thought that BJJ came from judo which was then STILL modified. I also believe that original (Japanese) jiu-jitsu isn't practiced in the same (alive) manner as BJJ. It's that quality that makes BJJ what it is. If you lose that (or don't do it at all), how CAN it be as effective?
Triditional jujitsu is crap. It dosn't matter on the person because no matter what it stilled trained the same way. The way something is trained determins the level of effectivness on it. judo, and bjj or much better choices since they train the way they fight.
To say that Brazilian Jiu-jitsu came directly from traditional Japanese Jiu-jitsu is simply not accurate. Japanese Jiu-jitsu was the basis, but the techniques were modified and evolved in the venue of Brazilian Vale Tudo.
Here, Read:
In the early 1900's, a Japanese jiu-jitsu instructor by the name of Esai Maeda went to the state of Para in Northern Brazil. There he befriended Gastao Gracie, a influential businessman, who helped the Japanese get established. To show his gratitude, Maeda, also known as "Count Koma," offered to teach the traditional Japanese jiu-jitsu to Gastao's oldest son, Carlos.
The youngest son of Gastao and Cesalina Gracie's eight children, Helio was always a very physically frail child. He would run up a flight of stairs and have fainting spells. Nobody could figure out why. So, after completing second grade, he convinced his mother that he shouldn't go to school any more.
When the family experienced some financial hardships following their move to Rio, some of the children were scattered to live with other relatives. Helio was sent to live with some aunts and through these family contacts, he found work as a coxman for a popular local rowing team, eventually moving into the team dorms. His indomitable spirit, great sense of humor and tireless aptitude to drive people nuts, earned him the nickname of "Caxinguele," which means "squirrel." He raised hell!
After a couple of years, when he was about 14, he moved in with his older brothers who lived and taught jiu-jitsu in a house in Botafogo, a borough of Rio de Janeiro. He would spend the next few years limited to only watching his brothers teach, especially Carlos, since doctors had recommended that they keep Helio away from any physical activity.
One day when he was 16 years old, a student showed up for class and Carlos was not around. Helio, who had memorized all the moves and words of his older brother, offered to start the class. When the class was over, Carlos showed up very apologetic for his delay. The student answered, "No problem. I enjoyed the class with Helio very much and, if you don't mind, I'd like to continue with him." Carlos agreed and Helio became an instructor.
He soon realized that some of the techniques he had memorized from watching Carlos teach were not very easy for him to execute. He then started to adapt those moves to his frail body's abilities, improving the leverage in the execution of some of those techniques. He dared to break away from the traditional jiu-jitsu his brothers had learned and were teaching, and through trial and error, Gracie Jiu-Jitsu was born.
Helio eventually fought 17 fights including matches against the world wrestling champion, Wladek Zbyszko. and a qualifying fight against the #2 jiu-jitsu fighter in the world, Kato, who Helio choked unconscious in 6 minutes. This victory enabled him to enter the ring with the world champion, Masahiko Kimura, who outweighed Helio by over 80 pounds. Helio Gracie holds the record for the longest match in history for a battle against his former student, Waldemar Santana, which lasted an amazing 3 hours and 40 minutes!
Helio, the first sports hero in Brazilian history, also challenged boxing icons Primo Carnera, Joe Louis and Ezzard Charles. They all declined.
Outside of the ring, always looking for a challenge, he enjoyed breaking wild horses and bulls. In an event worthy of a Hollywood movie, he once jumped into shark infested waters in the Atlantic Ocean to save a man's life which earned him a medal of honor.
Helio's relentless contribution to the perfection of jiu-jitsu techniques, his philosophy on life and his unique teaching methodology have been an example for his children and his students worldwide. These are the pillars on which the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Academy was built.
While some people have had good success with BJJ I don't see anything new in its technique. When I ask people what's new there not specific? I take jujitsu from time to time from some guy who fights in King of the cage and so dose 2 of his students and they are the tuffest guys I have ever grappled. So I think alot of schools are motifying there techniques as you need to do that anyway in most styles to make them half way effective. I'm just glad the Gracie's call what they do BJJ, and not JKD.
This message has been edited by Bushidocfs on Apr 12, 2004 12:51 PM
I read a BJJ book once (actually flick through like most books that start blaberring on) and it had exactly the same techniques as this old Ju Jit Su book I had read. In fact a lot of the BJJ moves are the same as the 18 Throw kung fu system of grappling I do.
The last post hit on an important point. Why has there been no more success stories in BJJ like that of the Gracies? It is the same reason why there is still only one person to reach Michael Jordons standard (i.e. Jordon) or fermant (mathematitian) for instance.
It has nothing to do with the style but how much alive training you do. BJJ from what I have seen is exactly the same as traditional jujitsu, but they spend more time actually trying to apply the technique a lot of the traditional schools do not. Why? Because they might hurt their little pinky.
Anyway I am going to Denmark for the week, see ya.
I'm still trying to understand the point that you and Northwood bloke are attempting to make. I've read what you posted before. And now I've read it again. It still leads me to the inescapeable conclusion that BJJ came DIRECTLY from traditional jujitsu. In other words Helio Gracie learned jujitsu DIRECTLY from someone teaching traditional jujistu. That does NOT mean that he didn't change or adapt it. Now if he learned jujitsu from someone who had already modified jujitsu, then I would think you were correct.
Now here's my original point (since it seems to be getting lost). Clearly there was enough already in jujitsu for it to be worthy for self defense. If it was totally worthless then would Helio have been able to "adapt" it to work? Also notice the reasons WHY he adapted it. Apparently his brothers were able to do certain moves that he couldn't do because he was weaker. So he found how to make JJ work for a weaker opponent. Kudos to him for doing that! But do you think these moves could have been adapted for his use if they weren't useful to begin with?
Side note. You mentioned vale tudo. I recall reading somewhere that Helio had great respect for Capoeira fighters. (If I can find the link I'll post it.) I just think that's interesting since so many people dismiss Capoeira as not being a "real" martial art.
Ok let me try to explain what I meant.
BJJ is a based on the teaching of an expert in jujitsu and judo, (Maeda was a student of Kano the founder of Judo).
BJJ was modified by the Gracies,
based on something modified by Kano,
based on specific styles of jujitsu that you don't see anymore.
Trad jujitsu styles have different histories.
Bruce Lee modified his kung fu and added other elements.
But it was mostly Wing Chun he started with.
So you wouldn't claim that JKD was modified classical white crane, or expect the training to be the similar.
Even though they are both kung fu.
BJJ is not based on the kind of jujitsu taught in most modern trad schools.
It isn't even based on the style that they are based on.
And so on.
The history of BJJ is easily found online if anyone wants to research it. From what I gather, the majority of BJJ comes from judo, which I believe is practiced differently than is jiu-jitsu. I realize that the two (jiu-jitsu/judo) are related, but it's how they are practiced which are what separate them. Judo being more "alive" with jiu-jitsu not so much.
Records state that judo guys were kicking the crap out of their jiu-jitsu counterparts on a routine basis, from what I understand.
Bottom line appears to be that BJJ comes from judo, not jiu-jitsu.
Sorry but I'm not following you. How does white crane at ALL fit into your argument? Did Bruce Lee study under a White Crane/Wing Chun master? The Gracies studied under a JUJISTU/judo master. Now granted, it's possible that all he taught them was judo. (Of course that begs the question why didn't they call their style "Gracie Judo").
Also here are a couple of quotes from the history Mike posted above:
In the early 1900's, a Japanese jiu-jitsu instructor by the name of Esai Maeda went to the state of Para in Northern Brazil. There he befriended Gastao Gracie, a influential businessman, who helped the Japanese get established. To show his gratitude, Maeda, also known as "Count Koma," offered to teach the TRADITIONAL JAPANESE JIU-JITSU to Gastao's oldest son, Carlos.
And:
He soon realized that some of the techniques he had memorized from watching Carlos teach were not very easy for him to execute. He then started to adapt those moves to his frail body's abilities, improving the leverage in the execution of some of those techniques. He dared to break away from the TRADITIONAL JIU-JITSU HIS BROTHERS HAD LEARNED AND WERE TEACHING, and through trial and error, Gracie Jiu-Jitsu was born.
Now you may be right. Perhaps the Gracies didn't know what the heck the were doing, thought they were doing and teaching "traditional jiu-jitsu" but were really doing "judo" all along. Anything's possible.
You are clearly unconvinced, or I am not making myself clear (which wouldn't be the first time).
However to an extent I can only argue based on what Renzo Gracie has written on the origins of his family's.
His is the only book I own that covers the subject in any real depth.
ie. more than the the standard one page history.
However what I can say first hand, having trained both styles and read around the topic, is that if BJJ and modern traditional JJ are directly based on the same style it is a mystery what that style could be.
BJJ is predominantly groundfighting a resisting opponent.
Trad JJ is predominantly pre-arranged standing throws and locks, with few or no groundfighting moves at all.
From what I have seen, yes Judo has more.
(I haven't really trained in it.)
Judo has all the basic positions.
It has armlocks, strangles and some nifty entries into submissions.
But...
Modern Judo competition places strict restraints on the length of time spent on the ground.
You can break up the fight by standing up from the ground.
And you can win with a pin, which I don't really like.
I just wanted to point out there are two types of jujitsu. One is sport jujitsu which is alot like judo, and then there is traditional combat jujitsu, nihon, yoshin ryu, etc. that teaches weapons mainly the katana and pressure point strikes, and alot of things found in sport jujitsu but not as much sparring depending on the school. I have noticed a trend in martial arts today that many teachers are worried about liability and do not allow there students to spar very much. These schools are a sham.
Jujitsu as a martial art has a long history, tracing an illustrious path from the birth of Buddhism in India to the NHB stars of today. It is worth mentioning that Brazilian Jujitsu stylists could take all the credit for reintroducing the art to the world today. I have personally thanked the BJJ lutadors Rickson, Royce, Renzo, Ralph and Royler from the Gracie Family, Mario Sperry and Murilo Bustamante, and Victor Belfort and Wallid Ismael. Without their strong-willed efforts, Jujitsu would still be considered an "antiquated" art which has been defeated by Judo a hundred years ago.
Nowadays we have two distinct types of Jujitsu. Brazilian Jujitsu, pioneered by the Gracies, could be considered as "modern" (post 1900) Jujitsu, while the original Japanese Jujitsu such as the Daito Ryu Aikijujitsu could be considered as "traditional" (pre 1900).
With all the success the modernists have enjoyed in today's NHB tournaments, there is no doubt that modern Brazilian Jujitsu is an extremely effective style. Their unique ground fighting techniques enabled them to control and conquer even larger opponents. But the traditional stylists have yet to gain similar position.
Rickson Gracie once stated that traditional Jujitsu is superfluous and ineffective. In many respects, his critique is correct. But Rickson also stated that traditional and Gracie Jujitsu both use nearly similar techniques and follow nearly similar principles. So where's the problem? Why can't traditionalists be as effective as their modernist brothers?
The answer lies in the training method. Traditional Jujitsu teachers, such as those in my country, prefer to teach the Jujitsu system "as is" with very little modification. As a result, the art ceased to evolve, and its effectiveness has been greatly reduced. There are still Jujitsu teachers who abhorred free sparring, stated that Jujitsu is too deadly to be safely contested. This way, students are denied the chance to practice their techniques in semi-combat situation, and thus they reduced their own effectiveness. In many ways, sparring with protective gear such as gloves and helmets will enhance a student's fighting ability, as well as his sense of confidence. Some teachers have devised a set of rules that enabled students to spar safely, and yet still be able to use strikes, kicks, takedowns, joint locks and chokes. I think this is a positive direction for traditional stylists in the future.
The other problem lies on the curriculum. There are still traditional teachers who insist that students must master ancient weapons, such as the tonfa, the nunchaku, the bo, the jo, the bokken, sai, nunti, etc., which have no relevance in today's environments. The time spent on learning weapons could be better allocated for more useful task, such as teaching the students escapes and reversals, as well as variations of techniques. Perfecting a proven, effective technique should be more important than teaching dozens of useless ones. Up until the rank of Shodan, students must be taught street-effective strikes, takedowns, weapon defenses and ground fighting. Conditioning exercises are also very important. The weapons, aesthetic throws and katas should be taught later, perhaps in the Nidan or Sandan stage. And don't forget to spend some time for light-contact sparring. This way, the students will be able to defend themselves adequately.
Does Traditional Jujitsu have a place in today's NHB world? If it still keeps its traditional curriculum, with all of its aesthetical mumbo-jumbo, the answer is NO. But if the traditionalist would modify their curriculum to make it street-effective, then the answer is YES. We all know that traditional Jujitsu places equal emphasis on fighting, either standing or on the ground. A traditionalist with lots of sparring experience, both standing or on the ground, are likely be able to defend himself well in street situations. In an NHB fight, a fighter who could grapple AND strike effectively will be highly dangerous. A traditionalist has the potential to become a dangerous fighter, since traditional Jujitsu has an infinite arsenal of Atemi (strikes), Kyusho Jitsu (pressure points), Nagewaza (throws & takedowns) Katamewaza (grappling) and Kansetsuwaza (submission holds). Jujitsu is a complete martial art from which other arts evolve. We have them all.
It is up to the traditionalist teachers to decide: Will they preserve Jujitsu as an art form, as an ancient relic from the past, or will they revive Jujitsu and make it an effective, dynamic and flexible martial arts for today's NHB world? I may be a traditionalist, but since 1990 I have put extra effort on grappling, easy takedowns and street-effective strikes. The results are worth it. Now my students could walk in the streets without fear, knowing that the art of Jujitsu enabled them to fight in any way they like, standing or on the ground. This is not self promotion, since ALL jujitsu styles has nearly similar techniques, and therefore ALL jujitsu styles could be made more effective with an improved curriculum. Hey, you, all traditional Jujitsu stylists out there, don't hate the Gracies! Look inside your own curriculum and refine your arts. I'm sure you'll improve. Who knows, maybe one day a traditionalist could win the UFC!
I think that article is great. Its what I keep saying, its not the style but how you train. I remember in another post Masamune asked what the diference in training was between JKD and MMA fighters this article is a good analogy to that question.
So really what I am saying and what I think this is saying is practice the moves you learn regulalry against resisting apponents. However I would also add that one should be looking to understand what it is that underlies all these moves i.e. what is know as the basic principles of combat.
