In a true Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do class, there are many things that you will and will not see. Below is a list of things that you should not see:
Classical uniforms with belts or sashes (Remember the non-classical attitude in training).
Barefooted instructors and students (Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do looks at everything from a practical standpoint; barefooted training isn't very practical.).
Stiff, low stances with one or both hands on the hip (Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do has the bai jong, or on guard, position which is highly mobile and effective for both offense and defense).
Striking from a position where the hand is at the hip or drawing the hand back for a strike (Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do prepares the student to strike from wherever the hand may be, with no telegraphic or preparatory motion).
Chambering the leg before delivering a kick (Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do kicks take the most direct route to the target, using proper footwork, waist and hip action for power).
Rigid, classical blocking movements (Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do prefers the stop hit, or stop kick, using a simultaneous parry if necessary).
Katas, Kuens or Hyungs (There are no forms practiced in Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do).
Striking, kicking and defending with the power side to the rear (Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do prefers to put the power side up front where it can be most effective).
Wide, looping or energy-wasting attack and defense movements (Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do movements are simple, direct and non-classical).
Extensive use of the horizontal fist for striking (Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do punching uses the vertical fist structure for greater efficiency and better centerline protection while striking).
Use of foreign terminology other than Chinese (Except in the "concept" schools where terminology of arts other than Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do is used).
Emphasis on grunting and bowing everytime you turn around (Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do has a salute which is used before and after training, when a student enters class late and before and after a sparring match).
Footwork involving wide, sweeping patterns from a low, static stance (Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do footwork is light, quick and to the point with no telegraphic movement).
Noncontact sparring (Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do prefers contact to prepare students for the reality of the streets).
Practicing all techniques by striking in the air only (Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do training uses focus gloves, kicking shields, Thai pads, the wing chun wall bag, the wooden dummy, the heavy bag, the double-end bag and other striking apparatus so that the student conditions their striking weapons as they learn to strike with speed, power and accuracy).
Excuse Me, But ......................................
June 7 2004, 2:20 PM
If you are going to use my material in a post, at least give me credit for it! That is written word for word by me, and has been published in four different publications WITH MY PERMISSION! It's not that I mind you using it, but it would have been nice of you to ASK!
Re: Things you should not see in a Jeet Kune Do Class!!
June 7 2004, 2:36 PM
I've trained bare footed in a JFJKD class, a few times, whats the big deal. I also didnt wear the Black Kung Fu pants, with matching black (Or white) T-shirt with the JKD Logo and I hated wearing those gay a$$ Gung-Fu shoes, so I didnt. It shouldnt matter what you wear, just train hard.
Bruce Lee trained bare foot, somtimes. I've seen pictures.
This message has been edited by Phases on Jun 7, 2004 2:37 PM
Re: Things you should not see in a Jeet Kune Do Class!!
June 7 2004, 4:29 PM
Of course he didn't ask you for permission Lamar, why would he do that for? That would showcase respect and consideration and we all know Exit Dragon has had a long history of showing you any respect and consideration.
____________________________________________________________________________
February 3, 2004
"As far as the banned member, I have banned Exit Dragon from the forum. Some would probably ask what took me so long. Well, I had actually decided to ban him a while ago, but I thought I'd give him a change to give reasons of why I shouldn't ban him. He just responded with something like "Why don't you give reasons for why you want to keep me here." That just doesn't cut it with me. I gave him more than enough chance to defend himself and straighten up his act, but nothing changed.
As I too have become sick of reading about this topic, I've also decided to delete the most recent threads about this person. Like many people have said, this is a JKD forum after all."
- Todd Lambert
"Yeah, the "stupid user" thing was pretty funny. I am wondering though, why can he still post here if he is banned?"
- JKD Swordfish3
*Looks like Todd's banning button got stuck once again.*
Jeet Kune Do (or at least as Bruce Lee developed and taught it) looks at everything from a practical standpoint! Training barefooted is not very practical! Also, if you train barefooted, then get in a conflict with shoes on, your kicks aren't going to be as fast or "crisp" as they were barefooted. Just the added weight of the shoes throws things off a bit. On the other hand, if you do train with shoes on, then get into a conflict when barefooted, your kicks will be even faster, as they have been "freed" from the weight of the shoe! Overall though, training with shoes on is far more practical. There are very few photos of Bruce Lee training barefooted because, as he, in his own words, "preferred the reality of the shod foot!"
Re: Things you should not see in a Jeet Kune Do Class!!
June 7 2004, 7:52 PM
Why does Jun Fan not chamber its kicks at all? I've never done JKD, but I train in a respectable wing chun establishment and a good portion of the kicks are chambered (especially those to the knee area, the side kicks are not chambered). Is it the Thai influence?
i usually do bare foot and stuff and i cant waer my heavy shoes so what about them they are not the best martail arts shoes ever but they are just yeah normal ...
It is good to practice in a variety of shoes. I most commonly wear athletic shoes (and lightweight SWAT boots when I work as a bouncer) so that is what I practice in. For teaching, I normally wear a good running shoe or cross trainer.
Hello Matthew!
There is no "Thai influence" in original Jeet Kune Do as developed, practiced and taught by Bruce Lee. The non-chambered kicks are to improve the directness and speed of the technique, and it also makes them difficult to stop, or even see them coming. Power comes from proper application of footwork, waist and hips! This is one of Bruce Lee's innovations, and just one of many different elements that makes Jeet Kune Do such a unique fighting art!
Re: Things you should not see in a Jeet Kune Do Class!!
June 8 2004, 2:31 AM
sorry sifu, but where i found these, there is no mention of your name or anything. It was a website of mixed stuffs about JKD and many other arts. Dragon's apoologies..
Re: Things you should not see in a Jeet Kune Do Class!!
June 8 2004, 10:26 AM
I usually train bare footed about 20% of the time. Sometimes my shoes cause blisters from all the footwork and moving from one angle and quickley bursting to the opposite direction, almost in mid flight. So, I have a choice, I endure great amounts of pain and train half assed, or I just take the shoes off and get a productive work-out. I hate wearing shoe's, if I could, I would be bare foot all the time. When I'm at the beach, with no shoe's on, I might get into a scrap, what do I say? "Excuse me sir, let me put my shoe's on before we kill each other". LOL
JKD is about YOU, and adabting to your enviroment. If someone spends time with no shoes on, then he should train bare foot. If you live in Alaska, and wear a big sheep skin jacket, then that's what you should train in (Judo would be a great fighting method for the Alaskan people). If you live in some remote African jungle, I would cross-train with Kali sticks, because there would be sticks everywhere!
If you train with shoes on, then get caught with them off, your kicks will probably just be faster! I rarely ever am without shoes, as I am just the opposite (hate going barefooted)! Besides, there are no beaches in Birmingham, just lots of concrete, gravel and broken glass!
Re: Things you should not see in a Jeet Kune Do Class!!
June 8 2004, 1:22 PM
When I first saw this topic I was going to mention that it was taken directly from one of Sifu Davis' website but then I decided not to bother.
Anyway, back to shoes on or off. I think the advantages of wearing shoes are minimal compared to training with them off. But personally I wouldn't mind training with some foot wear on say wood floors. It probably wouldn't be a great idea to train with them on a mat. The friction and grip of the rubber on the mat can cause someone to sprain an ankle because while kicking they may not be able to pivot. So I guess it may also depend on the training surface.
Shoes vs No shoes. This reminds me of a passage from the book of five rings, where Mushashi talks of the long Vs Short Long sword schools. In this is says that those who advocate long swords no nothing of true martial arts, and those who advocate the short long sword no nothing of true martial arts. This is from a master who became a legend in a era of war.
It is a concept that I have taken to heart. When you train nothing is 100% real. You are merely honing your blade. Wear shoes/dont wear shoes, wear heavy trenchcoat/dont wear heavy trenchcoat, carry a backpack/dont carry a back pack etc. This are things a martial artist who knows how to fight, does not worry about in training.
It can be argued that you may be slower kicking in a your shoes if you have only practiced barefoot. OK, but are you going to only be fighting barefoot people? Surely if they are wearing shoes aswell they are at the same disadvantage. There are millions of permutations in a fight, if you train only to fight in one condition then you understand very little about combat. Note this does not mean you have to train hundreds of different permutations.
This of course is just my opinion.
Martial arts to me is about training your body and your mind not your clothes.
Whether or not the other person is barefooted! I could care less about whether they injure their feet or not! In fact, that would be GREAT! In true Jeet Kune Do, the jeet tek (stop kick) is a primary tool. You could easily get your foot or toes broken or your ankle sprained trying to execute effective stop kicks barefooted. That would be just plain stupid! Also, we are not talking about the ideal "dream world" where you are just sparring or rolling on the mat, but the REAL WORLD where concrete, asphalt, gravel, curbs and broken glass are often present!
I was involved in six fights Saturday night on my bouncer job and guess what? Everyone had shoes on and there was broken glass present, both outside and inside! One guy lost one of his shoes in the fray (dumbass was wearing his shoes but too lazy to tie them), and was taken to the hospital in an ambulance with his foot split wide open by a large shard of glass (among other bleeding related injuries)!
All of you can do whatever you like, but I will continue to be prepared for REALITY! I do not train with competition in mind, but defending my life and the lives of others!
Re: Things you should not see in a Jeet Kune Do Class!!
June 8 2004, 5:09 PM
i thought also interesting that your points mention things like no horizontal fists and that certain types of footwork are not Jeet Kune Do. I have gained respect for you as a friend Lamar but you really make me laugh sometimes. You are the epitemy of what Bruce Lee's phylosophies seems (to me) to be trying to get away from. He tried to free himself slowly but surely from the bonds of tradition and here you are trying to creat more bonds of tradition to tie JKD to where it was when he stopped teaching.
I used to laugh at Vunak for how stupid his adaptation of JKD was, thinking that although it made some sense it was very basic and still had a long way to go to being fluid, yet now I gain more respect for him seeing the culture of rigidity he comes from.
Now I have heared your points regarding simular matters before. Sure you can learn more stuff and change things once you have learned the "Original JKD" and sure there are plenty of people who teach complete nonesense that has nothing to do with JKD phylosophy. But dude, why do you think these classical styles got into a mess the Lee started to entangle in his training in the first place? Seems to me your repeating history here.
Anyway that is my pitch for the day. Hope all is well, look forward to your reply.
When I use to train, we trained on mostly wood or tile floors. A friend of mine bought a pair of MA shoes and would work out in them. He loved it, I didn't mind working out barefooted but I was also thinking of buying myself a pair. At a later time we switched to working out in a training area that was comprised of mats. My friend nearly sprained an ankle trying to do basic kicks let alone any of the more advanced ones. The problem was caused by the friction of the shoes with the mat on floor. He found it difficult to pivot on the non-kicking foot. So if one wants to train with footwear then they either need to not train on mats or be certain that the shoes they buy are safe for the surface they will be training on.
Re: Things you should not see in a Jeet Kune Do Class!!
June 8 2004, 6:59 PM
About shoes or no shoes. First in the host countries. When inside shoes were not worn. other thing foot conditioning was a goal. But for most parts of the modern day world shoes boots ect are wore. And most often if you were to get into a real fight . You would have some kind of foot gear on. OR would you say wait and let me take my shoes off please. I did not think so. Many styles of kung fu gung fu train and practice with foot gear on. But most all Japan influenced M/A do not. Because of culture. As far as what is taught in a JKD class. It should relate to the teahings of what Bruce developed. And yes some horizonal fists are used. Bleeds from boxing. But Bruce maintained the Gung fu base. Lamar has good knowledge of JKD And this quote helps to show a fraud JKD school. As yes there is people saying they teach JKD .When they have just modified or put together a mix AND call it that. Those who practice barefoot. Put your shoes on and feel the difference. Then take them off . You probably found out shoes restricted your movement for awhile. SO shoes boot ect. should be trained for the real life training. And barefoot for the traditional aspects. Far as that goes. I used to allways check my jeans /pants when I bought them to see how I could kick in them. Do not much any more. But even they make a difference in movement.
I used to train in traditional martial arts the no shoes and thought i would never want to train with shoes on. Now that i do train with shoes i wont go back with the no shoe deal. I go back and train with my old school every once in awhile and i have to remove my shoes i feel akward as all get out. I feel much more stable with shoes on and like sifu lamar said less chance of breaking a toe. I would like to see someone do point kick to the shin with no shoes on ouch.
Re: Things you should not see in a Jeet Kune Do Class!!
June 8 2004, 10:50 PM
I'm shoeless, as I write this post, WHAT IF a robber jumped in thru my basement suite window and started to attack me. Home invasions happen a lot these days, in my area, It's a current trend. With or with out shoes, I'll be ready, if anything happened. I DO train for reality fighting in mind. Domestic violence happens a lot these days; I bet 80% (at least) of those attacks in the home was done shoeless.
Mr. Lamar, I do not go to bars with out shoes, and you wont see me shoeless at the mall... I am shoeless in my home, or friend's home (out of respect) or at the beach. Violence is unpredictable and all around us; it can strike you when least expected. I don't have the luxury of being a bouncer (looking for trouble); trouble seeks me, when least expected. I stay away from troubled areas, I don't fear anything, I just consider this as being "street smarts".
I say, train shoeless as much as you train your opposite lead stance, for me, thats about 20%-30%
Re: Things you should not see in a Jeet Kune Do Class!!
June 8 2004, 11:40 PM
Rob, you said,
"As far as what is taught in a JKD class. It should relate to the teachings of what Bruce developed. And yes some horizontal fists are used. Bleeds from boxing. But Bruce maintained the Gung fu base. Lamar has good knowledge of JKD and this quote helps to show a fraud JKD School. As yes there is people saying they teach JKD. When they have just modified or put together a mix AND call it that."
Seem's to me that Jeet Kune Do, the "original" fighting method, is starting to look like a "Traditional" style. I've noticed that a lot of Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do students are hanging on every single word that Bruce Lee said. I also believe in keeping Bruce Lee's methods away from other styles, mixing it together, and calling it JKD. However, wasn't the goal of JKD to absorb what is useful and reject the crap that doesn't work, for the individual. I have certain add ons that are not JKD, but it's my personal expression. When I punch, I breathe out explosively like a boxer; JKD didn't teach me this, past experience taught me. When I finger jab, it's a flick, not a poke. I don't only Straight Blast forward, I Blast at different angles. I like intercepting with my fists, not my kicks. Bruce Lee didn't teach meditation in class, yet he practiced it. Bruce Lee was funny that way, he was one of those guys that would say, "Do as I say, not as I do". Bruce believed in meditating, I've seen photo's of Bruce training with bare feet, and he didn't enter competitions - yet he show boated his fighting methods in front of big and small audiences, I guess he liked the attention. I'm all for meditation too. Personally, I have taken a more modern approach to meditation and positive thinking techniques. Also, The way I condition my body is different from what Bruce Lee was doing, I believe SOME of his methods are out dated and not efficient enough for a regular person with responsibilities.
What am I trying to say? Train with or with out shoe's, it's up to you, but don't train it just because it wasn't part of the structure. If our society never dabbled and explored other ideas and methods, then we would still be cavemen. Bruce Lee was a human being, he mixed up some styles of fighting and added his own personal flavor to what he was doing... this idea is the core of JKD. If you're not as inventive and believe that Bruce Lee was absolutely correct in everything he did and you are set on this ridged structure, then good luck, but as Bruce Lee would say, you're not honestly expressing yourself. If you look at the different original JKD students, you will notice that each one has their own "style". Some were taught in the different JKD era's, but most were taught differently, because Bruce Lee knew that indivuals had certain weaknesses and strengths. Bruce taught different students the core structor, but he taught the student certain priciples and training methods that would'nt apply to another student.
Anyways, I'm rambling on, again.
That Mike Descado character would know what I was talking about.
Re: Things you should not see in a Jeet Kune Do Class!!
June 9 2004, 12:43 AM
The funny thing about Jeet Kune Do is that it is based on formlessness yet some JKD people say there are restrictions to not use arts outside of what Bruce used in his lifetime. They are obsessed with learning exactly the way Bruce taught it in his lifetime. Well it's funny that a lot of them keep leaving out the official credo of Jeet Kune Do....the very thing it stands for "Absorb what is useful, discard what is useless, and add what is essentially your own". Some JKD people are going against what real JKD is all about by ignoring the creed. Their creed would go something like this: Absorb Jeet Kune Do using the same techniques and art as Bruce Lee, discard anything new you could possibly use that would be beneficial to you growing as a JKD artist, and add your own b.s. about how adding anything new would not be JKD but at the same time it wouldn't be a classical martial art."
It's kind of funny how they will use the exact same arts but not the same exact philosophy. JKD is about freedom. You don't have a lot of freedom and it doesn't take a lot of intelligence or creativity to follow exactly what someone else used. And it is my very strong belief that you cannot do real JKD unless you do add something new, discard some things in the art, and add what would be your own identity or flavor. It's like the difference between getting a bachelor's and a ph.d degree. One you simply get the degree and it's over....the other you have to come up with a thesis every year to maintain the degree...to keep you fresh, innovative, and thinking.
JKD itself is an art that is supposed to attract the most open-mindness of all martial artists simply by what it stands for and why it was created.
Any jacka** can get a black belt in Karate by copying the art exactly so you can look like a robot, go through the motions, learn the forms, break the boards, and punch air cause everyone else does so you do too. Don't let the same thing happen to Jeet Kune Do please. If every JKD practioner was honest with themselves, they would do their own research to supplement their physical training with mental training. This includes meditating, reading books on other martial arts, going to visit other martial art schools, work with other martial artists that are in a style that was not included in the original JKD that Bruce was doing, and see what they can do with it. Hell even discovering a new martial art that is currently underground and seeing the good and bad points in it would be amazing!
Another fun fact about JKD is that some people that teach JKD the exact way Bruce taught it don't know the whole system. They may know a lot of it but not completely. I am talking about 2nd, 3rd generation and on. EVEN some 1st generation students didn't learn the whole system. What you are learning from these people are pretty much everything they have learned but not the system in it's entirety. So if you want to look at it technically, these people are not doing it EXACTLY like Bruce either cause they don't know all of it. Bottom line is this: If you really want to be honoring the memory of Bruce, learn the whole system to full instructor from whoever you are learning JKD from. Then start doing research and see what else you can add and take away and make your own. Nothing more and nothing less would be real JKD.
Re: Things you should not see in a Jeet Kune Do Class!!
June 9 2004, 12:57 AM
Maybe Bruce taught his style incompletely because JKD is supposed to be made for and by the individual student. The student makes the style complete, however, if you are forever adapting, your methods should be evolving. So if the student evolves, then his style becomes complete, at that moment, but can change for the better, with any new discoveries that he may find in the future, or past. This is how I see and understand JKD, I may be wrong, but this is how I feel, at this moment... this is my JKD theory, it's my method.
Re: Things you should not see in a Jeet Kune Do Class!!
June 9 2004, 5:20 PM
You have to remember. Bruce has been gone since July 1973. Now that is not a long time. As In some arts founders. But if JKD changes and changes soon the methods a so watered down. NO one will be able to explore its teachings. As I have said befor. I have a seperate personal mix I work also. But will never teach it as JKD. Because it is not the bas structure. Sure we explore. I have said that in several posts. Keep an open mind. do not close the door. Self discovery And use what is useful discard what is not. THAT is freedom . Robots can not perform. But structured training. In a art. does not make the robot. The person never learns to free his self does. That part of why styles really do not make the skilled person. The person does. We learn to improve by doing. thats where tools find there use. But what you or I can not get working someone else may. Lets say You train JKD Then later instruct. Is your truth now the real truth because this tool did not work well for you you threw it out of the teaching. Even concepts thogh exploreing other arts. Offers OJKD. Because agin method is the person. How and what tool you find useful is you. So JKD stays alive if you the person stays alive in your discovery. NOT many clones in a fight. Just a person doing what they do at the time. Extended JKD as long as you let your students know its ok. They know the diference then. CAN not read a book train what you think may be JKD like and now say I know JKD. Lets take boxing. big one named field. Now NOBODY has a set method of how it is done. Do they. You recieve training get the gloves on and discover how you can put that skill together. Well M/A JKD is that way. YOU must discover your self. If not ROBOT is what you are. can do ok in all the drills. THE the pad work then when spars come in you are in the dark. Because now some one else is hitting back at you. You fall apart. Thats a robot. To be free from style you have to be your self. AND then JKD is you. What you do. SO yes I say give others that chance to learn the phase or phase of JKD as YOU were taught. Then Perhaps you might expose them to something else. But that is there choice to. Evlove people have. And They call it ther method of JKD. PFS SBG Both show relation But specific differnce. But just JKD Or Jun Fan//// JKD retain the base structure. Take your personal path. But can others follow. You do not have to train M/A to fight at all Just train to fight. I carried on enough.
Re: Things you should not see in a Jeet Kune Do Class!!
June 10 2004, 12:25 AM
In my opinion. Too many people think JKD is just some philosophy of do whatever works for you and its JKD. It doesn't matter whether it was what Bruce Lee did, as long as it works for you, its JKD.
I dont think thats true. JKD is a style. Without learning X type of punch over and over, and X type of kick over and over, you wont know how to punch and kick when the time comes. JKD has specific footwork, specific punches, specific kicks/parries/body movement/etc.
The thing that seperates JKD from 'traditional' martial arts, and you have to realise alot of schools have gone away from the 'traditional' methods because of Bruce Lee's teachings. Anyway, the thing that seperates it from traditional martial arts is the more open concept of being completely adaptable, and once you have learnt the basics, and after you have learnt the basics, you branch off into learning what works best for you. And I'm sure you will find what works best for you wont be too far from the basics of JKD, because of the fact JKD was designed with street combat in mind. But none the less you learn what works best for you after learning the basics.
A concept of Bruce Lee's was to absorb what was useful and reject what was not useful, but dont reject it before researching it and realising it was not needed. I think if people truely researched the 'style' of JKD, they'd find almost everything in the 'style' is useful, and can be built on from learning particular aspects of other 'styles'.
I think too many people take 'having no style' as Bruce Lee taught it as having no method and just doing whatever the hell you want. To my this isn't what Bruce Lee taught, he taught to not be boxed in by the traditional styles, and be completely adaptive, as thats the only way to be truely successful no matter the situation.
Personally I think if you train without shoes everynow and then its a good thing. Because kicking without a shoe is different to kicking with a shoe, its easier in my opinion, but different none the less. So because its different if you haven't practised it at all you wont know how to do it. Its usually also more practical to spar without shoes, lest you damage your partner. But I think its easier to practice with shoes, then spend 5 minutes without shoes to learn both methods. Rather than training without shoes and then putting them on afterwards to learn how to use them, because all of a sudden you feel alot heavier.
I often train punching with 3kg weights, will I ever have 3kg weights in my hands when fighting? Hell no, I'd break my hands if I hit. But training with 3kg weights, in addition to training with nothing in the hands and training with boxing gloves improves my speed when I do need to fight when nothing is in my hands.
If you never wear shoes, training with shoes adds weight to your feet, so when you do fight without them you'll feel much lighter on your feet. I train without shoes a bit, but not much, probably only 5 or 10% of the time. Only so I can get the feeling of no-shoes movement incase I do get caught with my shoes off.
Re: Things you should not see in a Jeet Kune Do Class!!
June 10 2004, 12:30 AM
This classic argument is like a bad case of diarrhea. It seems to never go away LOL.
I've had this conversation with Lamar and others many times. I agree with jkddragon, yet I also understand where Robert is coming from as well. I think most of the time OJKD and JKDC agree with the main part of each other's point. They disagree on the terminology. For instance, OJKD guys like to see things as everything starting from Jun Fan Gung Fu, then to original Jeet Kune Do, then to Jeet Kune Do Concepts (which in their mind isn't real JKD). The JKDC guys don't believe in original Jeet Kune Do in the same way as Original JKD guys do. They believe that Jun Fan Gung Fu IS the original JKD and that the actual Jeet Kune Do itself is more or less the concepts, strategies, and ideas of Bruce Lee in which they practice. But the point is this....in what original JKD guys call Jun Fan Gung Fu, you have the bi-jong stance, the chi sao sticky hands, the trapping, the boxing punches, the footwork and attack strategies of fencing, etc. In what the concept guys call Jun Fan Gung Fu, you have all of that too. What's the difference? Nothing. It's like two people arguing about the color of their coats when they miss the point on why they are wearing coats to begin with: To keep warm.
I have no problem with learning the exact same ciriculum say if Ted Wong came up to me and said "Here is the exact ciriculum that Bruce Lee taught us during this month or year back in the late 60's....follow this and you will learn real JKD"....then fine. I can do that. In fact to study REAL JKD you are supposed to do it that way....that is the base system for concepts or original. The only problem I have is when people are trying to prevent me from following the creedo of JKD (as jkddragon put it). Basically if I am trying to add in a BJJ technique I think would work in close range with my grappling skills and someone comes by and says "Sure you can do that but then it won't be JKD". Bruce said himself "JKD is formless so it can assume all forms". For someone to stop me from absorbing something new, then subtracting something, and adding something that is really me....it goes against what JKD stands for in my opinion. Because to research, go out, and learn how to make your JKD more effective by being daring, self reliant, and being creative is in my opinion following what Bruce wanted.
I would feel stupid to be honest if say Bruce never died and went away for a long time. He comes by and sees me doing all the original techniques and everything that he did way back in the 60's and he says "Good! You're doing great....you seem to have those moves down well. Now....what ELSE have you learned? What have you done to make YOUR JKD unique?" And then I would be like "uhhhhhh but I followed what you taught....I wasn't told to add anything because everyone told me it wouldn't be JKD if I added something new to the mix". He would slap me and say "What the hell do you think I meant by adding? How can you add if you are just using ONLY the same techniques I used in that time frame? The thing that doesn't change is the strategies and concepts.....the five ways of attack, the footwork, the boxing punches, the trapping, etc. THAT is the part of JKD that has to always be there...what does change is that....well I had 33 grappling moves when I was alive and I didn't get to get into it more deeper cause of my movie career. But since you have found a new way to improve JKD while I was gone and help it become more efficient and streamlined in that specific area...then great! Keep it up!" Then there is the weapons....people criticize the weapons influence of Fillipino martial arts on JKD. The reason weapons intermingles so well with JKD is because they are both weapons based arts. Jeet Kune Do is based on the footwork and strategies of fencing....the five ways of attack. Fillipino arts are also based on weapons. They are both reality based and both seek the most effective and brutal way to take someone out, setting aside tradition for practiciality battle field tested techniques. They both use the same practical angles that say Kali might use in it's numbered attacks....a head strike downward from a high right to a low left would be a number one.....then you learn number two, etc....these are proper body mechanics. In boxing you use the same motion to punch using angles. The Thai boxing....when you hook, concepts guys found that the elbow is in close courters and is in the same range as the hook punch. Since the elbow is more devestating than the hook punch because the elbow is a lot tougher than the knuckles in your hands, not to mention the elbow is a more punishing on someone than a punch we can also therefore use the elbow. The knees in Thai boxing are also very effective. In Thai boxing there wasn't an uppercut long ago cause they felt the knee was in that range to take care of it. The Thais and even the Kali guys know this. So it is often shown as part of what you can do with JKD if you care to see how else to improve your own personal JKD (which everyone that practices JKD does).
Ultimately what it comes down to is this....everyones way will be different. And it should be because if JKD is about personal freedom, everyone's JKD will look a little different, but you will see similarites because of the base structure. You can't have that if you think you have something to live up to, are compared to, and feel like there is only a certain way to express JKD. No one way is wrong. JKD is also meant to bring people together, not alientate them. I don't say your way is wrong....please don't tell the other guy that his way is. That's my 50 cents on the topic.
Too many people on this forum (probably VERY young) think they know what Bruce Lee was thinking and where he was headed with his martial art. From the posts I have read here, they don't even have the slightest clue! Jeet Kune Do is a process of elimination and refinement, not the accumulation of multiple techniques and systems! You have to have a starting point to know what works for you, which is why Bruce Lee's original teachings have to be preserved!
Now, if you are interested in competition, sport application or just playing around with martial arts, Jeet Kune Do is DEFINITELY NOT the art for you! Jeet Kune Do is designed with the street in mind. In other words, life or death encounters! This is why during the Oakland period Bruce Lee and his Assistant Instructor James Yimm Lee came to refer to Jeet Kune Do as "scientific streetfighting". Jeet Kune Do is not about rolling around on mats and tapping out when it hurts! Sure, grappling has some value and is great training, but it is way down the importance scale in Jeet Kune Do's arsenal of techniques!
Jeet Kune Do has been described in so many different ways, and unfortunately, most of the time it is by someone who thinks they "know it all" when in reality they don't have a clue! The bottom line is this: Jeet Kune Do is about stomping someone's butt as quickly and efficiently as possible! In simple terms, SURVIVAL! That is what it was originally designed for! Not sport, not competition, not playing around, and last but not least, it was certainly not designed to be the catch all, everything but the kitchen sink martial arts method!
Most so-called JKD practitioners these days have left out the things that make it such an effective fighting system! Why? Well from what I have seen most of them don't even know what those things are! No wonder they feel that they need something else! And from what I have seen of the trapping taught by most instructors, no wonder so many do not believe that trapping works in a live conflict. Guess what? I successfully used trapping in three out of six fights I was involved in Saturday night! Hmmmmm, seems like it works VERY well for me! Could that perhaps be because I know how to do it CORRECTLY?
Also, many people base their opinions of what Jeet Kune Do is on things that came to be AFTER Bruce Lee died! Many of you may already know that most of what has been published as Bruce Lee's writings was later found to be notes he had taken WORD-FOR-WORD from other books, some written long ago! Gee, did anyone ever wonder why these things weren't published in Bruce Lee's lifetime? Well, it was because they were just his notes, and were never intended to be published! They also were JUST THAT, NOTES that maybe had NOTHING to do with anything of any real impotance as far as Jeet Kune Do was concerned!
Also, how many of you knew that the good old "Absorb what is useful, blah blah blah blah" was not even said by Bruce Lee, but came about after his death? Also, did any of you happen to know that when Bruce Lee was alive, the word "concept" was never used to describe his art! It was simply known as Jeet Kune Do, and before that Jun Fan Gung Fu. Thus the title of this post.
The hundreds of photos taken that were used in the Bruce Lee's Fighting Method books from Ohara Publications are what Bruce Lee intended Jeet Kune Do to be. He didn't live to finish his project, so Mito Uyehara (a very sincere and dedicated private student of Bruce Lee's) finished it after his death! You want to see Jeet Kune Do? Well, there it is right there for all to see in those books!
I have worked very hard in the martial arts for thirty-seven (YES, I said thirty-seven) years of my life. Twenty-seven of those years have been nothing but Bruce Lee's fighting methods (Wing Chun Gung Fu, Jun Fan Gung Fu, Jeet Kune Do). I KNOW what it is! I don't need to have some disrespectful young smartass know-it-all punk that has done some reading and had a few lessons under a "concepts" instructor come onto a forum and try to tell ME what Jeet Kune Do is, or say that they find me amusing or humorous! I am not here for anyone's amusement or comedic entertainment! I guarantee you would find very little to be amused by or laugh about if you faced off against me, unless it was the mess that suddenly appeared in your pants! As for what I teach as Jeet Kune Do, I am the living epitome (proper spelling, by the way) of what Bruce Lee intended for Jeet Kune Do to be! MANY First Generation students of Bruce Lee have told me so! What some of you intend for it to be, NO, DEFINITELY NOT! But then that is a far cry from what Bruce Lee was doing!
By the way, before anyone reads my above post and gets their panties in a wad, this is not an attack against any other JKD group, as I know there are many approaches these days, all under the JKD banner in some way! I am speaking about my approach, Hardcore Jeet Kune Do, and about Jeet Kune Do as it was developed, practiced and taught by Bruce Lee! My goal has always been to learn as much as possible about this approach, then preserve it for future generations that are interested in what Bruce Lee was teaching, and for those who wish to get "the foundation" before going further with their training! I have many friends that are concepts instructors, and we get along just fine! As Len said above, just different ways of looking at things! If you feel differently than I do, that is fine! Just don't try to tell me that my approach is wrong, as I would be more than happy to show you why I do what I do, anytime, anywhere!
Re: Things you should not see in a Jeet Kune Do Class!!
June 10 2004, 8:01 AM
From my limited experience, Sifu Lamar seems to be one of the best JKD instructors I've heard speaking about JKD/Jun Fan Gung Fu. I really want to get your videos when I actually have some free time and money.
I'm not sure if I should start another thread for this. But Sifu, how much have you learnt of Wing Chun compared to JKD?
I've always considered Wing Chun to be different from JKD, and although JKD was developed by a student of Wing Chun, I didn't think it was really needed to learn Wing Chun before/during JKD, as Bruce Lee put all the Wing Chun elements in JKD he thought was needed.
Do you think its useful for a student of JKD to spend the time learn Wing Chun seperately, in addition to JKD? (considering that someone like me can only afford to spend a couple of hours every second day training).
Re: Things you should not see in a Jeet Kune Do Class!!
June 10 2004, 1:32 PM
Lamar - Thanks for the plug in your post. It's good to know that despite our different approaches, we have learned to get along and live in harmony.
To everyone else - A lot of people on here seem to like and respect Lamar. I have never met him, seen a video of him, went to a seminar that he taught, or anything. He himself and others say he is for real. Since I have never been exposed to him in any of those ways, I honestly say that I don't know. I assume that he is for real because of the way he talks, his website, and the things that I have been exposed to. In any case, regardless, I have talked with him a few times via phone. He is a very nice and respectable man. We have had a lot of good words to exchange as there was hardly any, if at all harsh words or disagreements. Many times an original and concepts practicioner will not get along but that is because most martial artists, actually people in general tend to want to concentrate more on the differences between people than the similarities. Finding the differences between people are easy. Seeing the similarities and the good in all people is a lot harder but worth more in the long run. The fact that a lot of his students are on this site also helps his popularity. I hope someday to also meet Lamar in person so I can see his technique first hand. In retrospect I hope he can also come to appreciate mine as well. I myself have come to see the importance of Jeet Kune Do in both the light of original and concepts. As Sifu Dan Inosanto once said "It is from the old that we get the security, it is from the new that we grow". Just like when we are born, we need our parents to give us the things we need to start out in life, and as we grow up, we are exposed to different teachers in different things at different times in our lives for different reasons. When we go to school, we start in just one school to give us our base. But when we are in that school we learn not just Math, but also English, Science, History, Art, Music, etc. to make us well rounded. I hope everyone understands what I am getting at. I hope to see Jeet Kune Do to continue to grow but maintain it's integrity throughout my lifetime. I don't ever want to see the core of it watered down to the point at being non-recognizable anymore, and at the same time I want to see people trying new and creative approaches to keep adapting it to the times. I don't believe in tossing random arts together for the sake of throwing them all together and calling it JKD but at the same time, growth cannot occur without change. And there is a way to do it without losing the identity of JKD. Just like each and every person will always be them throughout their whole life. That is their birthright and God-given identity. But that same person goes through many changes in his life to grow, expand, become more knowledgeable, and self aware. I hope all of you will think about these things.
Re: Things you should not see in a Jeet Kune Do Class!!
June 10 2004, 5:19 PM
Well Lamar you came out strong. I believe the same towards what is JKD format. But I try to stay a little softer in explaining. I hope people will take the time to relize What we both said. That Adding takeing away and then teaching it as JKD waters down the core foundation. But as I know JKD has become the most disputed M/A today. And Its easy for many To think Just anything can be JKD. SO as long as people such as your self and others try to keep the base core alive. Might include myself but no big deal. JKD will carry forward. ANd you know to many convepts people train OJKD. Then include other arts tools for self exploreing. Then some just do concepts and not go on into JKD training at all. And in the computor age. JKD is becoming a fought over subject. We can not stop what people think. But may open an eye or two. So I now say Hello agin Lamar. Robert Lee Master level instructor Jeet Kune Do World Jeet Kune do federation. Past member of Jeet kune Do alliance Been a few years Since We spoke. Keep the good work up.
Re: Things you should not see in a Jeet Kune Do Class!!
June 11 2004, 5:23 PM
LOL. Damn do you guys actually know what you are saying? We should stick to what lee originally taught, because before we can discard it we must first know it. LOL.
So why not learn 100% of wing chun? Surely this same argument applies here. Why not learn all of fencing or boxing? Why not start where Lee started so you can track his every developement and know you are on the right track because he did it too? LOL. Hell why not learn wing chun root style from Shoalin. lol. Do you not see how ridiculous this sounds.
Are you training to look like Bruce lee or to be a martial artist?
It is not about watering down it is about progressing. It is not about adding more it is about understanding more. Why is it that just because someone suggests not to be so rigid in your learning martial art (remember Lee never said he was a JKDist but a martial artist) you assume they mean you have to learn every martial art under the sun?
Oh and Lamar have you ever sat down and had a conversation with Bruce Lee? From what you have told us you have only got your knowledge from people who knew him. Which is fair enough, but most of what I know of him I have read from articles or books or interviews from people who knew him, so really what is the difference? it is still hearsay. So how do you know exactly what Lee wanted. From what I understand no one student learnt exactly the same thing from Lee thus implying that no one student learnt 100% JKD. Therefore what you learnt of JKD is not 100%, as well as it being your interpretation of your teachers interpretation of JKD. So I would say at most you only know 70% of Bruce's JKD. This is a simple reality. So how can you say for definite what Bruce Lee intended? I smell ego and pride here.
I also find it funny that on one thread people write that JKD is a style and on another others write that it is freestyle. I think that that there is a lot of confusion within JKD.
I go back to the question I implied earlier. Who here wants to develop as a martial artist and who wants to a bad copy JKDist?
lol. it is really funny to see this from the outside perspective of the JKD community. You really have no idea you sound exactly the same as most other martial arts. There absolutely nothing special about original JKD at least. What you teach have existed before lee in parts as well as in many other equally effective combinations.
Re: Things you should not see in a Jeet Kune Do Class!!
June 11 2004, 8:49 PM
^you have a good point, it makes sense, moving on, expansion of knowledge, evolution etc
i agree, but its all guess work, who knows what bruce wanted, i beleive thats why he died so early, sorta like a test, left behind a great art known as Jeet Kune Do, where very little is actually known of it, and there are so many different views,
jeet kune do means to me:
life or death self defense, open mind, one with all styles, you create an art that is uniquely your own,
heaps of sparring, use what is usefull and discard what isnt which means everyones jkd will look uniquely different in sparring,
Re: Things you should not see in a Jeet Kune Do Class!!
June 12 2004, 1:19 AM
I have never tried JKD Concepts, I've only tried PFS for a 3 month period, is the "Concept" material the same as "PFS"?
Back to the shoe thing, sometimes I'm shoeless, most of the time they're on. I guess I'm not a JKD man anymore. When I spoke with Ted Wong (1998), he ended the conversation by saying, "Keep up the great work in your martial arts training"... that's what I do, I'm a Martial Artist. I'm not too worried about names anymore. I have a new name for my style of martial art, it's called, "Perfecting The Basics", if only I knew how to say that in Chinese, then it would look and sound much cooler. Anyone know? Robert?
Re: Things you should not see in a Jeet Kune Do Class!!
June 12 2004, 4:09 AM
Ah Lamar I just read your entire post, and man you just went down a couple of notches on my repect-o-metre. Ego can be helpful on occasions but can also blind you to the truth. The ego that eminates from your post is shocking, particularly for someone who has done martial arts for so long.
I know a few bouncers, in fact one of my best friends a long time training buddy is a bouncer. Most of them have been in fights and have won and most of them do not have as much training as you. What does this mean? Simple people on the street generally do not know how to fight, it actually takes very little skill to beat a street punk. Apart from my training partner these bouncers I can beat no problem, so does this mean I am the epitome of what JKDists aspire to be? i am not questioning your ability to beat up unskilled people, but that is not an exceptional ability.
It is sad, and I am genuinely sorry for you, that after so much training your litmus test for high standard is so low.
That's fine with me, because with your recent posts, you dropped more than a couple of notches on my scale! You "know it all" condescending attitude is disgusting to me! Maybe you don't realize that you come across that way, but you do. Your responses to things on this forum have become quite typical and expected. It is as if you think you know everything and no one else knows anything! As for your statements regarding me, you have mistaken confidence for ego! I have no ego, but I am very SURE of what I know! Anyone on this forum that knows me can tell you that I am not an egotistical person at all, but I am VERY confident in my knowledge and abilities! DO NOT be stupid enough to mistake one for the other! You need to realize that your way is not the only way, and that there are others who have something to offer. To post something like your posts above, it is like the small child in the sandbox that gets sand kicked in his face and cries about it!
I understand fully what Bruce Lee was doing with his art (way beyond the 70% that you referred to ...... probably closer to 95%). That is why I have made the effort to train with and learn from as many original First Generation students as possible. You mentioned that Bruce Lee taught everyone differently. Well, guess what? I know that, and have written about it extensively! I wanted the essence of what Bruce Lee taught each of these individuals. I wanted a COMPLETE picture of what Bruce Lee was doing, not just partial. Now I have that. I know the curriculums from Seattle, Oakland and L. A. Chinatown, as well as a strong knowledge of Wing Chun Gung Fu. I practice daily, and am usually thinking about it or writing about it when I am not actually doing it! This is my life! This is what I do, and all that I do! Everything is an extension of my martial arts. When I make statements on this or any other forum, they are based on FACT, things that I have learned from First Generation students of Bruce Lee to be the truth, not just "what I think" or what "someone else thinks". What qualifies you as such an authority on everything?
