I've just recently learnd about Jeet Kune Do, and so I've checked the web out about it and came to this site. I've had classes in Tai Kwando and Hwar-Do (though I've not made it to black belt). After reading in these forums, something distrubing poped up in my head. In the teachings from my masters and instructors, I've always been taught that we should not brag about fighting and in all actuality should avoid it, but it seems that on here, some of the people have the mind set that they are the king of the world and should be fighting in the streets everyday.
I'm just wondering what all your sensei, sifu, instructors etc... have taught you to treat martial arts in your lives and how it should affect those people around you. In my mind it is not veiwed as power over others rather it is power over myself and my actions, and is a driving factor in making me take a better look at my actions.
you sound like a high schooler, which is ignorant of the old ways. martial art is about beating people's face, choking, and breaking. the term is "martial" art and not something like "chivalry" way.
i'll tell you the only thing you need to know to be a "good" person: A good deed is it's own reward.
be your own man not your sensei's, who is only after your money. all that coffe shop philosophy he spews out of his pie-hole is just propaganda to appeal to soccer mom's.
Yes, martial has meaning pertaining to militaristic, but the word art is there to. Martial Arts was not made in refrence to killing the people, but for the defense of the people. The art aspect comes not only as a physical means but also an internal expression of self dissapline. By no means am I a master nor do I stick with one train of thought. If it came down to it and I'm forced to fight, then I'll fight in any means possible. But neither am I going to go looking for a fight, as some people make it sound like they want to do. I don't believe you caught the full meaning of what I was saying. The thing is, there are people out there that want to learn martial arts and see people talking like they go out and fight people on the streets for s/g's, and in my eye's this is not good and gives the wrong impression. Discipline and wisdom is a key component in martial arts, more important than the physical aspect.
I find that most people respect and fear martial artists, therefore bragging about it actually helps you avoid fights. Some will do the opposite and would want to challenge you, but being a bragger, and I say it with no shame, I've noticed that it's only about 10% of the people you come in contact with and even then it's easy to avoid fights with them as long as you think with your head and not your balls.
It is not about fighting. But learning not to fight. Buy learning how to fight. Many people do come here and post on the subject. And Im guilty as others on posting there to add insight. If say JKD training tools were brought up more and that was disscussed perhaps less would go to other posts. But then the problem of people not recieveing or have recieved training might take it as gospal train it. And boom another person saying they do JKD with out ever taking a real lesson.So post are what they are. Some are just rubage and others are not so much. But its not such a bad forum to go to.
What the hell is "Tai Kwando" and "Hwar-Do" ???????????????
If you studied for at least one class you would know to spell the bloody names!!! Why are you waisting our time???
the samurai in feudal japan were more conquerers than defenders. clans were constantly attempting to conquer or anihalte other clans. aggresion and strength were considered virtues. passivity was frowned upon.
but that is what happened long ago. people in today's world need to ask, "do i want to study a system that will help me destroy or one that is full of tradition and pseudo philosophy?"
"Shrugs Shoulders", spelling is spelling though it is the meaning implied. I don't pride myself on spelling. And as far as Hwar-do is concerned I don't know how far the teaching of it spreads.
I don't considder myself a pacifist unless it comes to fighting, but then again I believe the element of supprise whieghs in my favor when someone underestimates me. I've been told that I look to "kind" "freindly" to pose a threat, and maybe in some instances I am, untill it comes to defending myself. I guess my beef with it comes when you say anything about studying martial arts is and someone else says something along the lines of, well you better not try it on so and so because they'll kick your a##, when there wasn't even a mention to fighting. Yes martial arts has fighting in it, but with the way everyone talks about it, that's all there is and at times thats what I think makes society frown upon it.
The truth is, I don't like it when my friends cringe when I say that I'm practicing martial arts, the first thing that pop's in there head is "he's gonna kick my a## and send me to the hospital" when in fact I study it to connect mind to body and reinforce my own self dicipline and control. Yes it does cross my mind that I will use it if threatend and there is no other alternative, but that is just a glimmer in my mind as compared to what I wish my life to be like. I guess it's just an issue that won't stop because everyone does look to have power over everyone else whether implied in the open or subconciously thought.
Valrash what you talking bout mate? Whose bragging and what does it matter? We are on a forum. What do you expect us to do? hug and kiss then say "oh what a lovely tea party".
I know there are a lot of people here who think they are hard but obviously have a lot to learn, but I would suggest you have a lot to learn about the learning processes that take place in forums. I also suspect your veiw on why we should do martial arts is influenced by the sport orientated lineage of your instructors. It is foolish to tell us why we should train because it implies you know all the reasons why people have started to train. It implies that all journeys are the same or even should be the same as yours. This is actually quite arrogant. I would urge a review of such an understanding.
Oh to the guy who thinks bragging is a good thing. To me it suggests you have no confidence in your fighting ability so you big yourself like a con man. Fair enough if it gets you out of trouble, but one day you will meet someone who will really take offense to this. Like for instance if you came up to me in a bar and you said you did JKD I would see that as the same a pulling a knife out and pointing it at me. At this point you bess be ready cause you do not know what is coming your way. I recommend to actually develop fighting ability and brag less.
Wow! You practice Hwarang-Do? That's style of martial art has the most techniques and forms that I know of, am I correct??? Lots of weapons, lots of high flyin' kicks, just LOTS of everything! It must take many years of patience & endurance to get your black belt in that art form. However, it's a good style for your mind, because you have to remember SO MUCH. Good luck in your training.
Back to your question, I don't think everyone in arrogant. Are all Hwar-Do students' judgmental and enjoy stereo typing groups of martial artists? Everyone is different, some are good and some are shady, you will find this in every walk of life, around the world.
Okay let me try this again. Since it seems the truth was deleted and obviously the person who deleted it, didn't want anyone finding out the truth!
Im coming here to respond to this board that Martial Arts is a Fraud. Gentlemen! let's face some reality here. I am a Police Officer and have worked in this field for well over 14yrs now.
Now what im about to tell you may come as a surprise or it may not. Everything is common sense but so many people are blinded by the truth. First let me talk about the term " Martial Art"
This term simply means MILITARY ART, or MILITARY STYLE. No matter what you've heard or what you think Martial is MILITARY! Its all about Tactics.
So many MA has been watered down to the fact of teaching Forms, Linear movements, Controlled techniques, trying to give the students hundreds if not thousands of different things to learn. Most of this training is pure and utter B.S. What is so Military about Martial Arts? NOTHING! Martial Artist do not use firearms most 98% of schools refuse to even discuss gun awareness, safety, or retention THAT IS NOT MILITARY. They spend day after day teaching an "OLD" way of fighting w/ swords and sticks and staff, and weapons that if you were caught with on the street you'd spend some serious prison time.
Nothing about Martial Arts is MILITARY at all plain and simple.
Martial Fraud is the appropriate name for what is out there.
Why not call it Tactical Defense, Self Defense, Empty Hand Defense, ETC...
now im going to give you the keys, the fundementals to learning how to fight. Learn these attributes and you will become a more sufficient fighter. After all thats what your all after. ITs not rocket science people its common sense. Why spend hours a day, thousands of dollars learning something you already know!
1. EYES: If your opponent can't see, he can't fight
2. Throat: If your opponent can't breathe he cant fight
3. Knees: If your opponent can't stand, most likely he won't or can't fight back.
OH MY HOW hard is that to figure out?
Those are the three areas you should really worry about. You should fight naturally, with instinctive movements that you have built into your natural body mechanics. We've all seen and know guys that are natural fighters that have never trained a day in their life. WHY? Because they understand NATURALNESS! and they just FIGHT! if you learn to protect and attack those 3 areas you've won the fight.
NEXT: GET IN SHAPE, go to the gym, i'd say 90% of those that spend so much time training in MA never step inside a gym. LAZINESSS guys....you need to build strenght, stamina, and structure. If you are stronger, and in better shape you've already up your % of winning a fight. NOT ROCKET SCIENCE GUYS. Get off your lazy butts and join a gym...Its cheaper than a MA school anyway.
NEXT: Practice, practice, practice, in an ALIVE manner put on a helmet w a face shield and attack the eyes, make contact to the knees...and make contact to the throat...learn to attack these lines. NO SENSE in training endless hours on BS moves and techniques its wortheless.
GUY im not preaching anew gospel here. Im giving you the truth of combat. Rely on Natural insticntive nature of how you would react and take out the 3 elements.
If you are into SPORT hell thats Martial Arts you have a chance to pit yourself against someone of same skill, and same level. A way to really test yourself and how well you really are. A tough guy never really fights.
Many people go a whole life and never has been in a fight.
Others fight it seems every other day. WHY IS THIS?
A real MA would never put themselves in a situation to ever have to fight.
If your a random act of violence chances are your MA training won't help you anyway becaue you won't even know its coming. GUYS IM a COP I know how it goes in the street.
LETS GET REAL HERE if you havn't noticed Martial Arts is a FRAUD
WAKE UP!
You raise some interesting points, but you oversimply things greatly and make broad and sweeping generalizations that are oft not true. Further, "Natural Fighting" is nonesense.
To fight naturally means one will act upon their brain's first calculation in response to a situation, which is often an unrefined and inefficient strike to a general area that is slower and more easily deflected than a trained strike, yet you preach this kind of untrained fighting while bashing martial arts, outmoded though they may be, at least teach the body how to deliver an effective blow.
The point of martial arts is to train the body so that what comes naturally is a more efficient response than the basest visceral attack. Someone who fights "naturally" would have nothing on a Muay Thai or Wing Chun student with even a dozen months experience in terms of power, speed, judgement, and ability. The techniques of proper parrying, blocking, evasion, disarmament, and other means of defense are taught by most martial arts and they provide for a much improved chance of surviving and ability to return damage inflicted upon oneself. If I were to naturally respond to a person throwing a punch to my skull, I sincerely doubt I would be as prepared to meet and counter it as I would be if I had several years of martial arts experience and I would likely leave myself open to further attacks.
If I were to naturally kick I would lack the speed, strength, balance, and effectiveness that I have now as a result of learning and training proper techniques for kicks. As it stands, I can deliver kicks when they will be most advantageous to me in a combative situation and I can retain my balance throughout so I may respond to an unexpected situation more readily.
Yes, there are three points that it is useful to oneself to debilitate on their opponent, but without proper technique and knowledge, how is anyone expected to actually hit those on a skilled foe?
You seem to think joining a gym is a replacement for joining a martial arts school in terms of building ability to fight. How? If I join a gym, I will get stronger without a doubt, but I don't learn how to fight. I don't improve my situation judgement. I don't learn efficient footwork. If one wishes to fight at their best capacity, partaking in activities at a gym and learning useful fighting techniques are both a requisite.
You seem to make much of being a police officer, yet I see no reason to believe you. You sound more like a pissy high school student who wishes to sound tough. "The Truth", you say, is nothing but a pile of crap that you're trying to pass off to gain yourself some sort of notice.
If I am the victim of a random act of violence, I stand at least better prepared to meet it with a chance of survival.
IF you are a cop You know little I think. First yes a cop has to face problems. BUT with a gun. night stick. pepper gas taser gun and back up. All at your dispersal. ANd then if the person really fights back hew goes to prison. NOW i do not have anything agins the law. As far as shape. I have seen more out of shape cops then M/A people.Over weight could not run a quarter of a mile. So real deal is people are people No matter what profession they do. Its the one that stay in shape and workout that are differnt per say. A good police officer is respected for doing a good job. We need those people. A bad one well he needs to go. Your post still makes me think you are no police officer. And several police officers practice the M/A teach and train others. Plus add what they have experianced to complinent there training. Not a personal dig to you But Perhaps you should swim in the water for a while befor you decide that M/A is not real.
I agree with the last post if you dont have the training or the at least the know how you wont think of any of those 3 areas. Most of the time there is not time to react how you are trained but if you are attacked and survive the intial attack and get your witts then you may beable to pull off your training whatever it may be. And you are a cop you would know better then any of us of excessive force eyes, throat, and knees could send them to the hospital and you to court to be sewed or spend sometime in jail. I have trained in the martial arts for sometime i have been a few self defense situations and believe without the training i had could have very easly been a diffrent outcome, and i didnt go to the eyes,knee, throat.
Okay, first off being a Police Officer has nothing to do with my post. However since ive been on the force all i've relied on is natural instinctiveness. THE PPCT bull they teach at the Academy and the every 6 month prep course they teach is worthless in my opinion. I will say I have relied on maybe one or two of those Pressure Points to help escort a detainee once arrested. When stating the 3 most logical places in a real fight to strike too the EYES THROAT KNEE this is the truth. Now as a P.O. I know I cannot go to these spots unless its a Deadly Force Issue. This isn't rocket science guys. If the esculation of a situation starts with a verbal assailant just being verbal Im not going to thrust my fingers into his eyes and kick him in the junk. Thats not advisable. However by being in the position of authority I would de-esculate the situation using loud verbal commands , yet firm and respectful. If the situatin esculates to a "hands on" or a level of immediate Soft empty hand control then Joint locks and take downs, are the key. But would I do a take down like is taught in a typical MA class? NO!
My take downs thats been most effective to me, is the Football Rush tackle as I learnt while playing football in High School.
Since I wrestled in HS as well my ground game is far more superior than the majority of martial artist out there too. Unless they are experienced grapplers. My whole point behind this little rant is, the fact that Martial Arts is fraudulant. It gives people a false sense of security that they think they are invincible. " I can defeat someone w/ a gun, Knife, Club, etc...) This however you see is becoming a " Hero" as we call it. Why should you feel the need to be a hero, when all you have to do is worry about going home and saving someone else's life? My meaning if you attempt to disarm a firearm from someone who is scared to death, and his finger hits the trigger and even if it does not shoot you, but the little ol' lady on the street corner, or sitting in the rocking chair in the front room across the street.. You, Yourself are just as much a criminal as he is and will probably be charged w/ criminal wrecklesness, or manslaughter. You see learning Martial Arts teaches so many to feel the need to be "tough guys". I hate being around martial artist, I hate associating with them period. Just as most of you feel about Police Officers. But the truth is, you do have the right to protect yourselfes and loved ones and anyone that you may witness a felony crime being involved in. Nonetheless, its not just that easy because you learn kung fu. You do not wear a S on your chest.
So many instructors of the arts that i have seen is false rectifying the excuse to use force in a situation. Back when I was growing up those kids in school who knew Karate/ Kung Fu were "pussies"... none of them could really fight. but yet they managed to take home so many trophies at tournaments, and put on really nice shows for demo's. But when it came to reality the underdog usually beat them. I watched this one boy get the tar beat out of him by a non MA. So my reasoning that MA is a fraud is final in that state. Sure you may learn how to kick harder, faster, w/ better balance yet its not always enough. All im saying is learn how to fight by practicing to fight thats pretty much it.
Thats okay. Your a conformist......Instead of following other's why don't you work on being a leader. Why would anyone want to conform to anyone's opinion of a way of fighting rather then experiment in something that works? Reality Fighting is more effective then any MCDOJO ran operation. Your Jeet Kune Do is widely becoming a McDojo operation. The fact that it seems everyone thinks that they can be Bruce Lee if they learn Bruce Lee the mighty master of on screen fighting is obsurd. My background comes from hard sweat and learning from the school of hard knocks. I can rely on my instinctive nature to react not something some over priced, over charging instructor that has never even experienced a fight can say.
There again you have some valid points i do agree with you as far as some martial arts schools do have a false sense of security in there students but not all. I also know many martial artist who have one many tournaments but would get there A$$ kick on the street. But i dont know if that has anything to do with the instuctor some people just dont have that killer instinct in themselves and no matter how many real situations they may be in they may never get it. Like Bruce Lee said you can train a person to learn tech but you cant teach attitude. Your right there proably wont be substatute for real fights with your training unless train in that sort of an enviroment. But alot of schools wont train that way because they wouldnt be in around very long society wont allow it anymore to many law suits and i dont think people are as tough as they once were to many things given to people these days not enough people are willing to work for what they want in life. I think as far as martial arts some people may not be in for the physical aspect as much the mental and just there own goals. You said a martial artist might be able to learn kick harder and learn better balance well i would say those are some attributes dont you think so at least they might have a fighting chance one thing with martial arts i always tell people is your not fighting the belt color your fighting the person so doesnt matter if you have a black belt or a white belt and on the street it sure doesnt matter to thug you may have to defend against and ther always a 50/50 chance of you being stab or shot if they have that weapon but i think you biggest assest is the thing you have on your shoulders.
> If you are into SPORT hell thats Martial Arts you have a chance
> to pit yourself against someone of same skill, and same level.
> A way to really test yourself and how well you really are. A
> tough guy never really fights.
> Many people go a whole life and never has been in a fight.
> Others fight it seems every other day. WHY IS THIS?
> A real MA would never put themselves in a situation to ever
> have to fight.
You make some true (and for some, hard-to-accept) points. I gave
up the idea of training for street conflict because the situation
appeared to me much as you describe. In the movies, actors like
Bruce Lee heavily glamorized fighting -- always for a righteous
purpose, always neat and clean. In reality, even if you are attacked
and win, it is not neat and glamourous. It is not nice to beat the
tar out of your attackers. People do not idolize you if you talk
about breaking some untrained slob's nose or ribs.
I used to have a "friend" who was in a position to compete in the
1988 olympics in boxing, and was sparring in Korea with their
olympic boxers in 1987. Years earlier, he placed third in an
international-level WTF TKD championship (I won't mention
the event in order to keep him anonymous). Once he told me how,
in a street encounter, he felt his opponent's ribs breaking as
he shot a hook to the body. He thought this was good fun. This
shocked me and I lost quite a lot of respect for him.
I have had encounters where my opponent just can't fight,
and keeps taking hard shots (once, I was jumped by a guy --
probably hopped up on coke or something -- who took like
three hard shots to the groin without flinching) but won't
give up. Once I ran away, after disarming an attacker,
because I just didn't want to hurt him. What's the use?
Street fighting is a situation to be avoided at all costs.
On this forum I hear the street situation so overglamorized
its sick. So, your post offered a fresh perspective.
When I started to focus on the sport aspect of MA, it all made
sense. Winning a competition is a wonderful feeling. Its socially
acceptable and the dedication required to get to the top builds
character. There is no false illusion or fantasy.
TD, you are 90% right. Possibly more. Vres is right that your perspective is refreshing, but just remember about natural unnaturalness. One extreme is to be the mechanical man, as many mcdojos would have you be, the other extreme is to be an animal. One must avoid the extremes.
Self-teaching is the answer to a world full of mcdojos.
Got to agree with albert here. I do agree with what TD is saying to an extent, but I do feel that it does come down to the indiviual instructor.
TD, when you say we should fight to learn how to fight, I do feel that this is not the only type of training you need. I have seen people scrap, and for years they scrapped exactly the same way not really getting much better.
In my training, i train fitness, i train flexiblity, i develop fighting condition. I do not train robotic punches but try to develop relaxed, accurate punches. I train the same in kicking elbows knees grappling. There is no set way that I do this I simply look where i have been open before and try to plug that gap. To me this is martial arts training. It helps me get better at fighting and yes i spar regularly aswell. So my question to you is would you consider this approach pointless? Or are you suggesting that classes where they spend their time practicing set pieces pointless? If it is the latter I can understand where you are coming from but if it is the former I find it difficult to agree, as I would fail to understand how getting fitter, faster, stronger, more accurtate, more balanced and more experienced is bad for combat situations.
So although I agree with alot of the things you have mentioned I would be interested to here your points on this regard.
YEs, you absolutly correct. If you read my current posts. I mentioned that it is very important that you get FIT, FLEXIBLE, and work to get STRONGER. Without these fundemental Key's your not going to be a very convincing yet, have a chance in defending yourself I think as much as strength is a key, having extraordinary cardio is by far one of the finest tuned attributes any athelete or Martial Artist could posess. If your opponent gasses before you do then you have the upper hand. So many make excuses in the Martial Arts why they don't go to the Gym, or train to gain these other attributes, they rely on technique and in class structure. its not gonna happen guys. I just come from a MA chat room and we got on the discussion of WHO GOES TO THE GYM? would you believe all the excuses I heard? Of about 20 or so, so called Martial Artist maybe 5 said they worked out in the gym regularly. The rest all had other excuses why. I even heard that they didnt rely on that relm that they had such belief that the techniques they are passed down by their instructors that they didn't need to worry about building these other atributes. HOW STUPID IS THAT? I could not help but just laugh at them and that they do not take anyting they are doing seriously.
In the other question you asked again you hit the nail on the head. If you practice "dead" form robotic movement and un-intentional techniques your never going to find worth in what you do. YOu must learn "ALIVE" which is what I always thought JKD was. But you would believe the JKD schools that are so laxed.. its pathetic. when I say practice to fight by fighting I didnt mean go out and fight. I am sorry if that was the way it came across. I mean put on the gloves, dawn the head gear and other pads if necessary and partner up and go at it as safe as possible. All that "No face contact" BS is worthless you got to condition your body to take hits in areas your afraid of. Face it no one enjoys getting hit in the face, but if you've never been hit there how are you going to know what it feels like? Can you believe that so many BLack Belts have never been hit in the face? SO what happens when they are faced to fight and they get blasted in the nose? OOOPS! That wasn't supposed to happen. Hence the ass whoopin happens. And all those years of training went down the tube.
Another reason why I say Martial Arts is a FRAUD!!!!
training to fight like this is not in my opinion have to be considered Martial Arts. HELL anyone can do it. Call it HIT FU for all I care. but thats the only proper way to train. Condition your body to take hits so your not in shock once it happens in real life. Some guys will give you a free face shot! Has anyone seen or experienced this? I have and it not a good feeling to be confronted by. Some guys get kicks and get off by you hitting them in the face. You can just hit them with all you got and they laugh at you. what you have just done is pissed your pants and he is now russhing you beating the ever loving piss out of you. You have to learn how to play their games. Do not give in to them and make them want you to hit them. But hit them somewhere else. I beleive this is one of BL 5 ways of attack what is it. Attack by drawing? Gotta fear that one.
Come on guys alot of sense is to be made in JKD but alot of people are training about it all wrong. Trying to stick w/ the old way is not going to get you too far. SORRY FOR THE LONG posts.
TD your right with robotic training to many rely on what they instruct is the gosspil and there is no other way to do a tech. Like bruce said there are diffrent body types not everbody moves in the same manner so you have to make a tech work to your body type. I think the biggest thing is people dont train the variable in tech they beleive a tech is going to work like it does in class. Class is artificial enviroment and the people you work the tech on know excatly what is going to happen so they put there body in the place it needs to be makes you feel like your doing something good but really all you are doing is practing a skit of a play. I am not saying tech is not good but i agree with that you have have change in the middle of a tech to see how you will really react. I dont practice base tech i give the tools work with them from lets say punch to a obstruction or to nothing at all so that way there main objective is to strike but know how to deal with the others if it were to happen a fight is ugly. When you start thinking to much of tech you slow down your reaction way to much. I agree with you about being able to take a punch if you dont know how it feels to get hit you will never know how you are really going to react to it i boxed for three years and have bounced have been hit but didnt lose my head did what i had to do. I dont go to the gym to lift but i do pushups,pullups, and situps and ride bike. so for the ramble on also.
You do noy have to go to the gym to lift and get fit. As matter of fact gyms open to the public has really not been around that long. Body building has nothing to do with fighting. It has to do with building. Running. joging pushups And good training makes good foght conditioning. BUT face it most people do not fight very often in real life. ring fighters fight more. And street fights do not last that long. A person that jogs just acouple miles a day or every other dayWould have enough wind to fight. Taking a punch is not from wieght lifting at all. Its setting the body at impact to resist the depth of the strike or kick. And to the face its being able to carry on with your mind set. GUTS. As far as M/A boxing any contact defence art. ITS the person not the art that will either do good or not.Its not M/A at all that makes the less skilled person. Its poor intructors. And poor students. YOU have to be willing to train hard if you want to get any where. Same with job skills. the better worker goes to the top. The others stay where they are. I have seen people promoted to different levels of blackbelt that would not make a good colored belt. But they have poor instructors .That care more about money and building there ego. But the M/A has maney good instructors and good students. And if fighting was so easy to learn by just going to a gym to get buffed Well every one would be there . Strengh may help in ground fighting and grapple. But so will fare shape and skill. Strengh wont stop a punch or a kick Much less a broke nose cut eye. or broken bone. Sure strentgh training can aid performance. But thats all it can do. Skill has to fit in or its just luck of the draw.
Good luck in your training.