I met a JFJKD teacher that didn't like his students using boxing gloves; he said it was too unrealistic. However, when they sparred, they looked like they were playing a game of tag, due to the light contact. Is this the proper way of learning JFJKD?
I'm not saying it's a bad or good thing; I'm just looking for honest opinions.
Whenever I spar I always wear gloves. I actually use Vale Tudo gloves now, but the other ones were a bit bulky and seem to get in the way. It turned sparring into a jumbled mess.
Vale tudor gloves lol. They are just bag gloves rebranded, I had a pair in fact still have the same pair which I bought before vale tudor and UFC got big.
Anyway to answer the question, I like to wear the "vale tudor" gloves as well, the prevent acidental cutting, but allow you to train more realistically. I also use 8 ounce gloves sometimes so I can practive throwing harder punches. I think the trick is to using different training tools appropriately. It is very difficult to marry safety with realistic training. You just got to be aware of the flaws in each approach and try to compensate for it in other training.
If you are doing bag work or sparring you MUST MUST MUST
wear both hand wraps and gloves. Period. Punching power
increases rapidly enough to damage you wrist/hand if
unprotected.
In particular, you must heavily tape your wrists to protect
against injury.
Even my wife would give me **** for hitting the bag without
wraps and gloves.
I'm using heavy 16 ounce boxing gloves for sparring every time, but i know what you mean by saying that they can be in the way sometimes...
Heavy bag training....sometimes i do it without gloves or anything, sometimes only with hand wraps, sometimes with gloves... but in my opinion it is important to train without at least sometimes and let your wrists and knuckles get used to it! Because when it comes to fighting in the street and you hit as hard as you can without gloves you can seriously be injured. so better train without gloves and stuff on a heavy bag and accept that in the first few weeks your wrists will hurt a bit (you don't have to hit as hard as you can always...)...
As for this JF JKD teacher... this is not very clever, because sparring without gloves is not realistic, too. For the students will never go against each other full speed, i think! I guess that's what you said looked like a game of tag!
bareknuckle fighters did,t use gloves, have to change to vertical fist and guard. Needs proper hand conditioning and "Dit dat jow" and internal style breathing, wrist strenghtening and hand the bones with internal exercises. Good body mechanics much more realistic and street ready.
I spar with gloves. I do bag work with gloves, although my bag seems to be very abrasive, my friend's bag I dont use gloves at all. I'm not knowledgable at all, but...
Sparring without gloves or body armor seems kinda weird to me. As even if you dont put 'power' behind a punch, the pure speed can do damage if you hit someone in the nose/temple or such like places. I've sparred without gloves a couple of times, and like you said, it was just like a game of tag. You can never truely spar to represent true fighting. In my personal opinion (and I'm not pretending to be knowledgable) sparring with gloves gives you a closer experience of reality. Then doing shadow boxing and practising on 'targets' brings your body up to speed to make sure you can punch and move fine without gloves/armor.
Thats my personal opinion. But your instructor probably knows what he is doing more than I do.
With the bag work, when you are starting definately use wraps and gloves. But as you progress you'll find your hands strengthen, then you can start taking your wraps off to punch the bag. Just to begin with, do a minute or less without wraps, take your gloves off and make sure your hands aren't hurting anywhere. Then the next time you train, add 10 seconds to the no-wraps time.
Wraps are definately an important part, because your muscles can deliver more power than your hands can take, but in my opinion your hands do strengthen, and training with wraps can sometimes make you slack and when you punch without them on, you dont flex your hand correctly at the point of impact. But definately start with wraps, and dont punch if your hands are hurting at all.
-----
"A fighter's hands, especially if he is good, are his weakest
points. You can't build up muscle to protect these small
and fragile bones. You can only care for them by wrapping
them securely. You are actually bracing the wrists so that
they won't snap under the impact of a hit. A tremendous
amount of force and pressure are concentrated into a small,
relatively weak area. The only way I can analogize a fighter's
hands is that they are like a race horse's legs. They weren't
designed to do what they do, so you have to compensate.
In addition, I am not only talking to the kick-boxer and boxer
I am talking to my traditional martial arts friends too. When
you kumite (point fight) you really should wrap your hands
before you put on free sparring gloves. I always wrapped my
hands when I was doing point competition. In those days,
however, we wore no gloves. So my recommendation to you is
whether you wear gloves or not your best protection is the wrap.
I have had both of my hands broken several times each. I've
gone into bouts with a fractured hand more than once. It was
generally because of improper wrapping. I wouldn't recommend
it to anyone, however I was not going to back out because of
it. Being a headliner is a responsibility."
-----
I started out with the opposite feeling; namely, that minimal
protection should be used. Now that I have chronic damage to
my hands (damaged nerves in wrist from brick breaking, broken
knuckles from board breaking, fractured metacarpals from punching)
I see (only too late) the wisdom in Benny's writing. As you get
older, your injuries will mount. Anyone who has been training
a long time and is over the age of, say, 30 will know exactly
what I'm saying
Now I wrap my hands religiously.
I hear people talk about wraps/gloves not being suitable for "real fight"
training. Think about this for a moment. If you don't take care to
properly protect yourself, you may find yourself in a "real" altercation
with a hand you've injured in training. That being said, certain exercises
(shadow boxing, trapping drills, kicking-only drills) are fine unprotected.
Of course, with the hands properly wrapped, you have to pay attention to
your elbows and shoulders, which will start to hurt if you hit hard from
strange angles.
I hear what you are saying. However what I do not understand is why you dont just try to make your wrists stronger, and yes this is possible. The are many exercises for this. I used to hurt my wrist as my punching got stronger, so I exercised my wrists. The pain went away. The othe reason why it would hurt is if you land wrong. I would have to show you how I land, as it is different to what I have heared here, and find it difficult to describe. However, correct landing of the fist stops injuries from taking place. These two things combined prevent to the need for wraps.
The other thing is, if you always train with wraps, as you get a stronger punch your wrists do not develop with it, thus when you are in a situation where you are without wraps it increases the likelyhood of injury because your wrists are not used to punching without them.
I appreciate what Benny says, I have heared boxers say this as well. However I do feel this is a boxing cliche and not necessarily a universal truth. If it where martial artists would have been busting their wrists all over the world for millenia. from my own experience you can develop a lot of strength in your wrists if you spend the time to do so.
You hear about so many pro boxers spraining and breaking their fingers/knuckles/wrists while punching, and those boxers are pro's, they are conditioned so well, yet they still injure their hands. Maybe, as "scientific street fighters", you should consider using more elbows and palm strikes. If you do want to punch, consider aiming for soft fleshy targets, such at the stomach, ribs and ballz. Use a Hook type palm strike for attacking ears, temple, cheekbone and Straight Palm strikes for the nose.
Just idea's jumping around in my head, what do you think.
Phases, the problem with boxing gloves is that they make it harder to trap or grapple. But kickboxing is definitely part of JFJKD (at least in my book) so I own both a pair of 16 oz boxing gloves and a couple of pairs of open finger gloves. Typically I punch harder when wearing the boxing gloves, but when wearing other gloves it's still a bit more than "tag". There's also an "improved" version of the kendo (kempo?) gloves Bruce wore in some of his training (and in the initial scene of Enter the Dragon). These over more padding than open finger gloves, but you can still grab with them. I've never tried them, but Lamar uses them now. From what I remember his classes spar full contact with them. (Sifu, correct me if I'm wrong on that).
we use 14-18 oz. gloves so we are able to hit fairly hard while reducing the chance of injury. we are still capable of easily taking the fight to the ground or clinching. we have encountered no problems executing arm-bars, chokes, or ankle locks all while wearing the boxing gloves.
grappling with boxing gloves is not as comfortable as not wearing gloves, but it is still extremely far from difficult. i don't even realize the difference while i'm doing it. and yes, i do roll wihout gloves.
a figure four arm lock, i have never seen done with gloves, but i like the trade off: being able to spar much harder with most submissions instead of not sparring as hard with all submissions.
this arguement is analagous to gi or no gi.
Boxing gloves will work just fine to train the hand tools. And also for just kickboxing. Then on to other gloves to include the traps and grapple ground tools. As far as hand injury . A M/A has to learn to toughen the hand with time. Why when the force of the strike is greater then the delivery tool . Something gives. in this case the hand. So bone conditioning of the hand biulds a stronger delivery tool. Boxers protect through padding.. As set backs effects there ring time. M/A trains in time. So a set back can be protected during healing times. UNLESS you ring fight then same goes. But agin by the time you get to that level you should have biult some kind of conditioned hands.
Dude, when you are sparring, I advise you NOT to use gloves. When your partner(s) block, parry, or grab your arm, then you gain a realization of what it REALLY feels like to be blocked.
A hint for you: KNUCKLE PUSH-UPS -> A very good way to toughen your knuckles. I personally do them on a tiled floor, but if you want to, you can do them on ANY hard surface.
I wear weight-lifting gloves when I train (the gloves are without wrist-wraps) they are light but provide SOME protection.
Well, anyway, it is always a question of your aim... what are you training for? For self-defense or just for fun, oder for competitions... someone training for boxing or kickboxing competitions only (not for self defense) should never train without wraps, for example, for he should not take the risk of being injured too easy...
By the way: The day after my post about not wearing wraps doing heavy bag training I hurt my wrist in muay thai training LOL
Maybe you should not listen to me...
> The day after my post about not wearing wraps doing heavy bag training
> I hurt my wrist in muay thai training LOL
Thanks for your honesty.
Some of the advice offered on this thread is unwise.
Indeed, suggestions regarding "hand" conditioning are
potentially dangerous. Take it from someone who has
been there and done that. Now in my late 30s, my
ability to hit a bag with full power is hindered by
the fact that I damaged my hands so severely when I
was in my teens and 20s.
For anyone lurking, take it from Urquidez. Use handwraps
and gloves when hitting the heavy bag. In the long run you'll
be glad you did.
For speedbag work, grappling, etc, try to use your wraps
and tape. For grappling, you may want to tape any suspect
joints. By the way, I find that hockey tape often goes for
the best price. Whenever I'm in Canada I stock up!
first Hands only A decent boxer with boxing gloves on . And the other a decent M/A with say kempo gloves. The boxer will hold his own all day. WHY he has trained hisis hands and body to use his tools well. Sure the gloves wont work well in the clinch or as grabbing. But you learn to slip weave and bob. And open hand parries still work. Its not really what you use its what and how well you train what you do. Go to a boxing gym. Take your gloves of choice. Get in the ring hands only. Then you will see Its agin the person.
So say im just doing this for self defense(with the bag), not competition or anything should i still wrap up and use gloves? and are there anything I can do to strenthen my wrists and everything that can sustain to damage. Also is this a good way to wrap: http://www.boxinggyms.com/tips/wraps/eugene01.htm Thanks.
> So say im just doing this for self defense(with the bag), not
> competition or anything should i still wrap up and use gloves?
Yes. If you are serious about training and are lucky enough to develop
good punch mechanics you'll notice rather quickly that your wrists and
the bones in your hands (metacarpals) are prone to injury.
You may want to try hitting carefully sometimes without gloves (you'll
notice your handspeed is better without gloves) on occasion but focusing
on speed rather than power. You can experiment, but always take care.
Also, with regard to gloves, do not use the little/cheap ones with
the metal bar in the palm. Good choices are the Everlast "training bag
gloves" or if you are over 200lbs, the "pro bag gloves" shown at http://www.karatedepot.com/baggloves.html (you don't have to get them
there, of course).
Also, it is not uncommon to hurt your shoulder (typically the rotator cuff)
by throwing a bad hook or overhand shot. You may also have (if you're like
me) a prior rotator cuff injury from some other sport, so it is important
to BE CAREFUL.
> and are there anything I can do to strenthen my wrists and
> everything that can sustain to damage.
There are two schools of thought here: (1) one pass of the wrap between each
finger (three total), and (2) one pass only, between fingers 2 and 3. The URL
you give suggests the second method. You will probably get instructions with
a new set of wraps, too. Remember, tape is also very important: you can add,
say, six loops of tape to each wrist after wrapping.
when I trained in wingchun we experimentd with a few types of gloves, boxing gloves were quickly thrown out, because of the unability to trap, we then tried the kenpo type , with a little better result, yet still a little cumbersome, for small piercing and circular movements(bil gee sau, inside line punch, huen sau, etc). eventually we opted for the smallest open finger gloves we could find, together with mouth piece,head and body protectors since the smaller the glove the less padding, the more the hurt ...ouch! yet full contact was only for the experienced. high ranking (two years of training "controlled your punches" sparring, with light contact to the body etc. or for "rank Test day" ...ouch! a good kali or wing chun practitioner can tag you 4 or 5 times before your next move with out hurting you, this proves a tremendous amount fo control, achived through years of training.
