can someone plez help me i am currintly taking martial arts and i get into alot of fight in school but iam always too afraide to hit someone when it comes down to it i just can't do it can someone plez give me advice that would help me out thank u for taking ut time to read what i have to say
hmmm its eather you take them down or they hurt you..dont be afriad to hit back, I do not like hurting people as well, but if someone is going to beat the pulp out of you hit back, or hire a bodyguard or dont get into fights...
it's amazing how many people come on here and say bruce lee's phrases without even understanding them. the one about the bodyguard was saying that if you don't learn combos you may have to hire a bodyguard.
anyway, a thing that helps me whenever i have to hurt somebody, is thinking that life is a gift, a bonus, and anything that happens in it is good, no matter what, so punching someone teaches both them and you, because the ONLY thing you can do in life is progress. don't take this to extremes and go killing people though!
if you kill them, so what? they had an extra bit of life, and they may be reincarnated, or live on, you don't know! but it will teach you to control yourself if you do kill someone, but placing that control on you before you are ready can be detremental- like placing a 100kg weight on a 5 yr olds shoulders.
so relax, let the passion course through you, and hit if you want to!
i hope this helps your problem-
-Jowan
First off you should be asking not how you can fight, but what is making you get into all these fights at school? It seems that if your getting in tons of fights your obviously doing something wrong. Is your mouth over running your "butt" and making checks you can't cash? Or are you so vulnerable to attack tht your one of those guys everyone loves to pick on? My question lies in not why or how you learn to fight....but if your getting into this situatin alot you need to re-evaluate your life.
Fighting is not always the answer. By any means don't let someone walk all over you or lay their hands on you. Defend yourself at all cost. But my point here is saying WHY? Noone needs to be getting into " ALOT " of fights. That just obsurd...
This makes me think your provoking these instances.
I think TD has made a really good point here, although I would also say that in some instances fights occur alot even if you do not provoke it. In my school there used to be these guys who would go round shaking money out of everyone. You either fought back or you gave them the money. Telling the authorities made no difference you just got beat up for that, so actually it may not be so simple as you describe TD.
Anyway with regards to the question, I would be better able to help you if I knew why you could not hit back. Is it because you have a phylosophical religious or ethical reason for not hitting people or do you just plain freeze in a fight?
If it is the former then maybe instead of learning striking techniques you should start to learn grappling techniques which could be used to control you opponents. If it is the latter, then unfortunately it is one of those things that improves with time. As you train more, spar more and become confident you will stop freezing. The is no on/off switch that I can tell you that will stop you freezing. You just nead to learn how to fight and you shall stop freezing automatically.
yes, I would like to know the reasoning of "WHY you cannot hit" its a little strange i guess. I may have come off earlier as a bit of a prude and I appologize for my ignorance. I understand as it was explained things do happen. Therefore in a larger city school I know things happen and usually not a good explanation for it....I grew up in a rather small country school so I guess I do not understand the youth of today. But in any instance when you are being harrassed, or picked on what is your evasive tactical situation? Do you have one? Training Martial Arts is not always going to give you this edge you seem to be looking for. Also, are you being sought after in fighting because your taking MA ? if so my next question is, who and why are you telling everyone and anyone you are studying the arts? You know and I know that is grounds for an ass whoopin right there by many. So many people wnt to challenge the " Karate boy" in school. You have one option and that is to kick the livin " TAR" out of that one guy and call it day...it's either you have what it takes or you don't. Many people are going to challenge you to see where this training is taking you. if you don't fight thier gonna say your a pussy. (sticks and stones there my freind) but on the other end. If you stand your ground pound one maybe 2 of them. You'll be mostly left alone I assume. Then again assumption is the mother of all screw ups. So I can't relate to really what is going on inyour life at this moment without an explanation. Either you hit back and fight w/ all you got or you don't and face the consequences there. Without the heart of a warrior your never going to be a warrior. BUSHIDO way of the warrior. You can learn all the flowery, pretty little moves in class all week long and when it comes time to use them in a real situation and you "Freeze" out of fear your heart of the true warrior spirit is not developed at that time. And this is where many traditionalist in MA fail and get their bloody arses beat! Just some food for thought my friend. Good luck in what ever you decide and find out. I think your really on your own on this one. You must find that inner strength within yourself We can do that for you. Some are born warriors others are "forced to be warriors".
First off, remember that anyone can post anything on the internet; and as such, don't take every thing you read at equal value. Some information is garbage. With that caveat, I think you should analyze why you are getting into so many confrontations (as posted earlier by TD) and then seeing what you can do about preventing them. When I was a teenager I learned to keep my fool mouth shut, keep to my own business and show strength in appropriate ways. I didn't get into people's faces but also not to appear weak. If you are indeed compelled to fight, make sure that you are aquainted with fighting in your training. Some kind of sparring (against a resisting opponent of course) is necessary for you to be able to actualize your skills. Furthermore, the more your sparring resembles the type of self defense you need to employ the better. Olympic TKD sparring is probably only going to be beneficial if you are being bullied in the Dojang simply because the techniques showcased are rather contrived. I am a big fan of boxing (punching seems pretty natural and intuitive) and both your mind and body will be fairly well conditioned for fighting. Be warned, boxing is a hard and bloody sport. You may get hurt, but what you learn does reflect the ugly reality of fighting. Personally, I train JKD (in its original form and with some modifications). My training partners and myself have had success both in the ring and on the street and we credit that to hard, realistic and sophisticated training.
> i am currintly taking martial arts and i get into alot of fight
> in school but iam always too afraide to hit someone when it
> comes down to it i just can't do it
I was also somewhat afraid of hitting (as in punching in the
face) my "opponent" in jr. and sr. high school fights. I think
I know what you're feeling. My suggestion is to get involved in
HS wrestling (this assumes you are of high school age). When
you fight, you can then subdue/humiliate your opponent without
punching. There is some chance that you'll get a reputation and
guys will be less likely to pick you as an easy target. Tac makes
a good point when he say that "karate boy" may be targeted. I would
add to this that "kung fu", "JKD" or "ninja" boy also may be
targeted. Be careful. I think some high school kids have it
really tough. Some cowards also never fight alone. Try to
arrange fights so that they are one-on-one. This option usually
vanishes after high school.
JKD Lite:
> Olympic TKD sparring is probably only going to be beneficial if
> you are being bullied in the Dojang simply because the techniques
> showcased are rather contrived.
Hmm. This coming from someone ostensibly practicing JKD! Olympic
TKD sparring will ensure that you never gas, and have excellent
mobility/footwork skills -- better than JKD. If you are in bad
shape and not very strong, neither JKD or TKD will help you.
Wrestlers as a rule are very fit.
> I am a big fan of boxing (punching seems pretty natural and
> intuitive) and both your mind and body will be fairly well
> conditioned for fighting.
I would never recommend boxing to a young kid unless head-shots
are disallowed. The price you pay for taking head shots at a
young age is too high. I went to high school with a boxer-bully.
He was tall and thin and use to taunt me for a time. At some point
I snapped (I was scared of him) and nearly choked him unconscious.
I believe he actually cried. Had a similar run-in with wing chun
guy. At least he didn't cry.
As someone who did Tae Kwon Do for almost a decade, I think I have a pretty good handle on it. It may be good for conditioning, but the sparring experience is not very much like that which you might encounter in a real fight.
> As someone who did Tae Kwon Do for almost a decade, I think I
> have a pretty good handle on it. It may be good for conditioning,
> but the sparring experience is not very much like that which
> you might encounter in a real fight.
No, TKD sparring does not simulate well the general atmosphere
and conditions of a RealFight(tm). Nor does judo or boxing or
MT or BJJ or JKD (in their "average" incarnations). However,
all of them, if trained seriously, will leave you better prepared
for certain types of RealFights(tm), but not others (I won't
bore anyone with war stories). None will prepare you for the
gunshot wound to the knee you receive in retaliation for punching
the s--t out the gang banger you catch tagging your trash bin.
Anyhow, olympic TKD and judo have the additional benefit that the
"talent ceiling" is very high. This means that, as you improve,
you can compete against better and better opponents. At some
point you may even enjoy the challenge of competition, abandon
your juvenile fantasy of being a street badass, and devote yourself
exclusively to sport training.
My advice to any MA newbie is to visit different gyms and see
how they train. If you see a group of people you can respect
and feel you can learn from, then give it a shot. I believe
this approach is consistent with the original philosophy of
JKD. I began training in TKD simply because I was extremely
impressed with how tough everyone looked. This was a long
time ago, and nowadays it is perhaps more likely you'll walk
into a TKD gym and find yourself shocked at how young/bad
everyone is. The same is true of other MAs. Buyer beware.
I know people who did get beaten up just for being who they were. He's not rude or anything, just some people are bastards and like to prey on the weak. But after about 5 years of that, he learnt how to fight back, and after about 10 years he was starting to bash the other people.
If you are getting into alot of fights, of course I'd ask "Why?", as I've only been in half a dozen fights in my entire life, half of those were before high school (although I did very nearly break someone's back which I still feel totally **** about).
If you can't find why you are getting into fights, maybe ask someone else why you get into fights (a friend or brother/sister). If its simply because those people are bastards, maybe go learn some kickboxing or boxing, that'll teach you how to hit.
I hope my story may provide some insight into your "I can't hit" question.
When I was 6 years old I was taught the techniques of how to strike and kick with power. I was naturally athletic and prematurely coordinated, and therefore an entertaining side show for on lookers. I provoked smiles and praises from adults, and interest and awe from the other children.
At that time the local children made a street match between myself and a year or two older bigger child (known as a bully), it was without adult supervision.
I was explosive, hitting and kicking, knocking him down over and over, but he kept getting up and fiercely fighting back. My opponents aggression had absolutely no success, even though all I knew how to do was position, kick and strike at a few vital areas in combination. He was hurt and bleeding badly, I was not hurt at all, but I suddenly quit fighting, and began crying and ran home.
The next day some of the children asked me why I cried and ran away since I was winning so easily. At the time I did not know the answer to the question.
When my father found out what happened he showed no emotion and instructed me not to practice striking or kicking, instead I would be taught grabbing and controlling techniques (Qin Na), and wrestling.
As I matured I returned to striking, kicking, etc., and incorporated all techniques together.
If it is in your character not to hit.. then you are a man of peace. With time, and practice in the art of self defense men of peace are usually the most formidable when attacked.
When a man's nature is not to hurt another man when he could easily do so, it shows great moral strength and defines one's character, even if at times there is some personal regret.
Such a man can be trusted with all the combative skills they may learn and carry around with them.
My very best wishes and regards,
Zhi
I would argue that both muay thai and boxing simulate real fighting more than tae kwon do simply because the presence of credible hand techniques. Tae kwon do is designed to showcase kicking. Striking with the hands is more intuitive for human beings in my opinion since it doesn't require a large change in balance. The absence of low kicks in tae kwon do further adds to the indirectness of it. You can't attack the closest target. These elements lead to habits that are not conducive to fighting in an arena whose rules are not designed to showcase tae kwon do. The low hands, chin out posture coupled with the lack of awareness to low line attacks breeds tactics which are not efficient for fighting in a less restrictive venue.
> I would argue that both muay thai and boxing simulate real fighting
> more than tae kwon do simply because the presence of credible hand
> techniques.
Boxing simulates real fighting? I have mentioned in this thread
already that I fought and beat a "boxer" (who was certainly taller
and perhaps heavier than me) before ever taking a single lesson in
TKD. How? I was scared of his hands so I bridged the gap and
took the fight to the ground where a choke quickly followed. Now,
I admit that in this case we were not out to kill one another, but
it shows one real weakness of all these disciplines: ground skills.
This was the point I made in my last post: none of these disciplines
accurately simulates real fighting. Further, the fighter with
only ground skills and no striking ability has to worry about a host
of potential dangers. The guy with one year of BJJ can be taken out
in a heartbeat by a boxer, or MT or TKD fighter who really has his
act together. I'm sure people who train BJJ disagree.
Three particularly nasty "real fights" of mine come to mind. All of
these were inevitably against multiple opponents. One was on
ice/snow and went to the ground immediately. As soon as I got
the mount one of the bystanders immediately put me into a really
painful neck crank. What happened to the boxing part? I escaped
and the fight dissipated. In another case I walked past two guys,
one carrying a stick. They followed me and, as I turned to look at
the dude with the stick, he smacked me across the face with it, and
removed my right eyebrow in the process. I quickly disarmed him,
and credit TKD for the timing and fast movement required for the disarm.
He was pretty muscular and in this case I DID NOT want the fight to go
to the ground. After disarming him, I threw the stick as far away as I
could (good idea or not?). We had lots of room and I could keep him at
a TKD sparring distance. In the process I kicked him (with a new pair
of Doc Martins) in the groin two or three times. I was a little shocked
to see that this hurt him but DID NOT put him down. He charged and
I KOed him with a right cross: EXACTLY my competition TKD punch, in
exactly the application it was trained for. In the 80s, the straight
right was a standard TKD competition technique and was thrown with
knockout power. I note that it has mostly vanished in modern sport
TKD. In a rage I got the mount and delivered some number of head
butts -- but as soon as I was on top his buddy started hitting me
with the stick (which he had recovered). So, I had to stand and disarm
AGAIN. Understandably, at this point, I was totally exhausted (I was
not training at the time) and just started running. The third story is
perhaps even stranger: whilst standing in front of a urinal, I was
jumped by two guys (I'd had words with one some time earlier). One
sliced my eyelid nearly open with a ring or something (I never saw it
clearly) and the other tried to bite my thumb off. As soon as I knew
what hit me they were gone. I was unhurt, really, but bleeding very
badly. There are some other unsavory details which I'll leave out.
So you see, I find it a bit hard to take whenever I hear some "theory"
about the street effectiveness of a style which, in reality, will NOT
guarantee you any sort of success in a fight with someone who really
means to do you harm. In my own experience, my ability at TKD has
served me very well in real fights. I am willing to admit one thing:
I believe my TKD training was on somewhat of a different level than
the "olympic TKD" that you refer to (and others refer to when trashing
TKD). I went through the WTF ranks in Canada in the 80s long before
the McDojo phenomenon. It was rough. My first full-contact tournament
fight (as a white belt) was harder on me physically, and shocked me more,
than maybe any street fight I've been in. I threw almost all punches,
full power. A good fraction of my dojang-mates were very tough, skilled
in more than TKD, and some trained six days per week like I did. It was
during a time when many WTF schools were in a transition phase from
"point sparring" rules (and open-style tournaments) to WTF-style fighting
only.
The watering-down TKD has received through the evolution of McDojang
and "TKD for fitness" is undeniable. Unimpressive, one-dimensional
TKD stylists abound nowadays, so to this extent I can accept your
criticism. These schools fail the "training intensity" test that should
be applied to any MA. If and when the training intensity in an MT or
boxing gym sinks to the McDojang level, you'll see the equivalent result.
How do you feel when someone starts a fight or picks on you?
Can you narrow it down to a general feeling i.e. laziness,anger,fear,sympathy or vanity? Look inside to find the weakness and correct it from within.
As for your enemy,you will use the same tactic and find there weaknesses and use them to your advantage.
A good example would be,a person that is picking on you because they can, you might fear them for no good reason=Fear Sympathy
A good way to combat this, first to correct your faults then to use one of these elements against them i.e. find a way to make them angry=Anger or self conscious=Vanity and strike them when and where they least expect it. Use your intuition,knowledge and stealth.
I'm glad you had a positive and worthwhile experience with Tae Kwon Do. Obviously it is the fighter, not the style, that decides the outcome of the fight. However, it seems that most fights involve punching. Boxing training gets you used to punching and getting punched or, if things go more your way, punched at. Since punching is a kind of common denominator, it makes sense to me to study it in depth and in a way that offers other athletic and tactical benefits. The techniques that make up Tae Kwon Do are less likely to be encountered than those of boxing. I think the likelihood of having someone on the street throw a right overhand or cross followed by a hook is more likely that someone throwing axe and roundhouse kicks. I think there are defintely benefits to training tae kwon do and that it can be used in self defense or even full contact competition, but boxing skills are going to be a more common thread in the martial arts world today (MMA, kickboxing, muay thai, savate, JKD, Shootwrestling, etc.) and are more quickly developed to a functional level than tae kwon do.
I can appreciate that tae kwon do training can be very effective, but there is a difference between being a home run specialist and being a good overall baseball player.
answer to your problem: maturity. And, ask yourself this question: "am I afraid to hit for fear of being hit back?"
Wait until you're about 25, then you'll know what I'm talking about. I had the exact same problem.
Being immature caused me to run my mouth and get picked on as a child.
Being immature got me into lots of trouble as an adolescent.
Being immature kept me from being ascertive enought to stand up for myself.
> Obviously it is the fighter, not the style, that decides the outcome
> of the fight.
Precisely.
> Since punching is a kind of common denominator, it makes sense to me
> to study it in depth
If that suits you. But you must know that boxing technique, and boxing
training, are geared heavily towards sport. For example, a premium is
placed on endurance and conditioning so that a fighter can last for
many rounds, maintain an even pace, control his aggression, etc.
And while the core technique can be learned more quickly than kicking,
other critical skills such as timing and assorted "ring smarts" are
acquired more slowly (as in all combat sports). In boxing, however,
there is normally a severe price in terms of head shots which must
be paid in order to gain these finer skills.
> and in a way that offers other athletic and tactical benefits.
I would argue that TKD is more tactical than boxing. There is
less of a tendency to willingly taking one shot for a chance
at two, for example.
> I think the likelihood of having someone on the street throw a
> right overhand or cross followed by a hook is more likely that
> someone throwing axe and roundhouse kicks.
I think it is unlikely that a street fight will go for 12 rounds
(3 for amateurs) without any grappling.
> I can appreciate that tae kwon do training can be very effective,
> but there is a difference between being a home run specialist
> and being a good overall baseball player.
But boxing is a very specialized sport! In a real fight, and in
my own experience, a boxer's skill set can be neutralized in an
instant by a quick takedown. The same goes for a TKD player.
However, I bet an olympic TKD player can learn to execute a
basic sprawl more easily than a boxer. I also bet an olympic
TKD player can learn to box well with minimal training, whereas
the boxer cannot do the reciprocal.
One Dojang mate comes to mind: he went smoothly from TKD to
kickboxing to boxing and became one of Canada's best amateur
boxers in the late 80s.
This is really getting ridiculous, but it is a fun and friendly debate...
I think that TKD is less tactically sound than boxing in the way they hold their hands: low and with their chins out. The stance is very sideward which would make it harder to sprawl and the boxer's experience with clinching, while much less than a wrestler, will amount to more than a tae kwon do artist who doesn't ever engage in standing grappling. Now, if we are talking about olympic athletes, they are going to probably pick up any activity better than another person of a lesser calibre and an olympic tae kwon do competitor may have better odds than a poorly trained boxer. However, in terms of having a set of tools that are easy to functionalize quickly, defensive habits that are sound in any art (e.g. hands held high), simplicity and skills that will cross over into other areas I wouldn't whole heartedly embrace tae kwon do. I have sparred with contemporary tae kwon do people and they usually have poor defense against boxing style punches. The punches are telegraphic and do not leave the practitioner well covered. In fact, some tae kwon do stylists try to incorporate boxing hands (some with more success than others) in an attempt to make up for this shortcoming. The kicks, while sometimes very fast due to the athletic gifts of some competitors, are very indirect (with the chambering of the leg prior to execution) and are less efficient in putting "body" into the kick. Boxing skills are practically universal and will probably help whatever stand up art you find yourself doing. It is not the same with tae kwon do. No other arts really borrow from tae kwon do while the same is not true in the case of boxing.
At first i would like to say that fighting in any form is not right.
People get much further in peace wich each other and in other matters then thrue war.
But in your case it's the "fear of knowing" what could happen if you hit someone (becouse you train martial arts and know when and how to hit or kick)
Let the fear of it go, do not think what will happen if you hit back but focus on the moment you need to hit or kick.
It does not matter if you get expelled from school or worse, it is important that you show to the people who bully you and the rest of the school that you can and will stand your ground if you have to, becouse if you do not act now! you will make a habbit of it not to act.
Fear is nothing more than a emotion, wich with practice can be controlled.
> This is really getting ridiculous, but it is a fun and friendly debate...
Its looking a bit off-topic now, too.
> I think that TKD is less tactically sound than boxing in the
> way they hold their hands: low and with their chins out.
You were the one who originally said TKD is only effective for
fighting in the dojang. I know from real experience that this
is false. Now you are saying something different: namely, that
TKD is "less tactically sound" than boxing. This is a claim which
begs the question "tactics for what?". I grew up in a place where
lots of kids knew how to box, and where kids and adults used their
fists all the time (I have mentioned earlier that I went to high
school with John Kordic). Under these circumstances, one comes
to prefer starting a fight with a few solidly placed kicks before
going toe-to-toe and brawling.
And, although I started taekwondo to improve my real fighting ability,
I continued because of the high level of athleticism and competition.
It was no picnic. Let me assure you, training at KNUPE in Seoul
was simply brutal. Once, while fighting full contact with no pads
(with Korean national A and B team guys) I was KOed (by a B-team guy),
dragged from the floor, woken up, and made to fight the next round.
Street fights happened during this training camp, too. You messed
with these guys and you lost. Period. Boxing was part of the
curriculum for TKD majors at KNUPE, by the way.
> I have sparred with contemporary tae kwon do people and they usually
> have poor defense against boxing style punches.
And I have sparred with Yang Dae Sung (specifically, counter-
punching drills). You could attack him with any technique and
he'd counter-punch perfectly every time. Conversely, I was never
able to counter him. He was inhuman.
By the way, how well how do contemporary boxers defend against kicks?
And I wonder, is the chronic brain damage associated with boxing
worth the skill set? Or are we talking about boxing learned
from the cardio kickboxing class at 24hr fitness?
> The punches are telegraphic and do not leave the practitioner well
> covered.
How telegraphic are a boxer's kicks?
> No other arts really borrow from tae kwon do while the same is
> not true in the case of boxing.
Nonsense.
- TKD defined kicking from 60s to modern-day point fighting.
- The best full-contact karate fighters of the 70s and 80s
used TKD-style kicking. Theriault and Urquidez kicked in
exactly the same way as WTF TKD people did in the early
80s. Benny's spinning kicks were TKD-style.
- Over time the best techniques from TKD have been silently
absorbed into many fighting systems (even Sakuraba has used
turning back kick successfully in Pride).
It seems that tae kwon do has served you well. While I might have inadvertantly implied that tae kwon do is ownly good in the dojang, I certainly did not mean that litterally. I've known some tae kwon do people who were good fighters, and I certainly haven't had the same exposure as you. The bottom line of my argument is that tae kwon do is known for high kicks often with jumps and spins. It has been my experience that these are some of the least necessary things to know. Being trained and conditioned to fight against more likely attacks seems to be a better use of training time. Tae kwon do competition may be brutal, but who are you training to fight against? How many potential real world attackers are going to use anything resembling tae kwon do? Tae kwon do is very athletic and could be done very effectively, but I think there is a whole realm of tools and tactics that are more direct and more simple to employ. I understand and agree with your perceptions on the limitations of boxing. By itself it is not even close to offering "complete" kind of training. However, for my own experience, I have found my boxing training to be more relevant. Boxing, while not complete on its own, has been a more valuable element in my overall fight game than tae kwon do. I don't mean to pass this off as a universal truth, but merely as my own experience. Personally, I don't train much conventional boxing anymore. I train and use Jeet Kune Do when I spar. However, the principles and tools I learned in boxing have really helped my JKD. Now I respect what you do, the old full contact fighters like Bill Wallace used kicks akin to tae kwon do quite effectively, but I wouldn't choose to throw a lot of high snappy kicks when I could more simply and directly punch someone in the face, kick the shin/knee/groin, etc.
For the record, I never threw "high snappy kicks". I threw mid-section,
full-power kicks and punches. This got me to a national level in Canada,
but when I fought internationally I found I simply could not hit my
opponent. Because the olympic TKD ring is very large and not roped off,
it leads to the use of super-long-range tactics rather than those found
in MT/K1.
One must love the challenge, and want to do TKD as an end in itself,
in order to succeed as a high-level competitor. I believe that the idea
of training for "the street" is lost to most high-level competitors. Some
(the women in particular) probably see it as laughable and perhaps inane.
> How many potential real world attackers are going to use anything resembling
> tae kwon do?
How many potential attackers are suspended, 80lb leather cylinders?
The point is that if you really are focused on hurting people for real,
then TKD is only part of the equation for becoming a complete fighter.
It is a superb way to learn how to kick, though.
> Tae kwon do is very athletic and could be done very effectively,
> but I think there is a whole realm of tools and tactics that are more direct
> and more simple to employ.
That is probably true. Alas, most MAs (sadly, even lots in TKD) are
pretty bad kickers. This has a lot to do with age, in think. Starting
too late in life will leave you a poor kicker, no matter how much you
practice. Then you have no choice but to do the "simple stuff"
Out of curiosity, have you been in many "real" fights?
If you trace the path a tae kwon do kick travels, you will see that in chambering the kick you do in fact pull it away from the target before extension. This seems rather indirect to me and I can see no reason explained in the canon of tae kwon do in doing it. Sending the foot directly to the target seems like a better idea to me. Tae kwon do round house kicks are snappy by nature since they hinge at the knee. It is much more difficult to get the same kind of power from a kick hinging from the knee that one can achieve by kicking with the hip.
Do tae kwon do people not use equipment training? Yes, boxers hit punching bags, but they spar alot. Furthermore, the sparring they do more closely resembles actual fighting than does tae kwon do.
> If you trace the path a tae kwon do kick travels, you will see that in
> chambering the kick you do in fact pull it away from the target before
> extension.
This is a "non-contact" kick (presumably a round house kick) of the
point karate or ITF TKD variety, not an olympic TKD kick. In a modern
WTF TKD kick, often a deep follow through is omitted to set up a double
kick, or if a fast retreat is required. If the opportunity to throw
a full-power kick appears, it will be thrown.
When you spar (kicking and punching) do you throw all techniques
at full power? How about in competition? In a "real fight"?
> This seems rather indirect to me and I can see no reason explained
> in the canon of tae kwon do in doing it.
You do it during non-contact fighting only because it requires
minimal committment. I presume you did ITF taekwondo? I am not
talking about ITF.
I once found myself thrust into an ITF TKD class (not having trained
for about a year) facing one of the two BBs who had about 4 inches
and perhaps 20 lbs on me. Never met him before, never saw him again.
I was farting around throwing this "snappy" stuff (that's what we
were supposed to do, right?) and for some reason he slugged me in the
face. So, the next time he stepped forward he ate a "full power" back
kick -- and could not continue. Sparring over. That kick was nothing
special in WTF sparring. Also, I have been hurt, through a chest
protector, by a fin weight (read: tiny) korean [the 84 nat'l champion]
doing a (very unsnappy) roundhouse in laid-back sparring. He saw
me not taking him seriously and BANG. I remember the kick vividly
to this day.
> Sending the foot directly to the target seems like a better idea
> to me. Tae kwon do round house kicks are snappy by nature since
> they hinge at the knee.
Actually, for full power, a kick through the target is the idea.
The inverse false claim is that in MT, the kicks are slow and
leave the opponent open to counterattack. This is clearly not
true, right? Actually, in the 70s, Urquidez could outkick the
"standard" MT fighter. The main difficulty he faced was the
clinch which allowed knees, not the kicks. In fact, the relevant
criticism was that MT lacked side/back kicks and so fighters
were extremely vulnerable to them.
> It is much more difficult to get the same kind of power from a
> kick hinging from the knee that one can achieve by kicking with
> the hip.
Obviously. This is pretty basic.
> Furthermore, the sparring they do more closely resembles actual
> fighting than does tae kwon do.
I thought I had to reply to this two man debate. JKFLITEs point that hinging the kick at the knee was less powerful is contrary to my own canon. The style of kicking I do you will not have heared of, but is translated as chinese flipping kick. One of its distinctive attributes is the hinge at the knee. The leg below the knee is relaxed (i like to say dead) and is used like a nunchaku against the opponent. The upper leg is also relaxed but is providing the initial momentum along with the hip and the rest of the body.
I nunchaku is faster and hurts more than a long staff at the same effort. The flipping or hinge kick to me is like the nunchaku and the straight leg kick you describe is like the long staff. If you would like to see a very good example of this hinge kicking action watch "Young Master" Jackie Chan is fighting a Hapkido master in the final scene (Hapkido Kicks come from Tae Kyon which is the same for TKD).
My kicking style is slightly different to the TKD I have seen (Sorry I do not know if it is ITF or WTF) although I can see it is definately faster than other kicking styles (Art of High Impact Kicking by Korean 7th dan, is my source for this). Certainly a nunchaku moves faster and is more flexible than the staff of course the staff is still dangerous.
How many fights I have been in is irrelevant to the discussion. I do contend that in most "real" fights punches will out number kicks. With that presupposition, why devote so much time to defending attacks that are that unlikely in the real world? Furthermore these punches will most likely be aimed at the head. I also think that learning to kick to the legs and groin is a far more useful lesson than kicking to the body when said kicks can be caught or if the groin or leg of the kicker is a legitimate target. My point is that while tae kwon do MAY excel at high and middle kicking, those skills I feel are less fundamental to overall fighting success than credible punching skills (or grappling, clinching, low line kicking, etc.). In basketball, a person might be able to do free throws backward with one hand in a free throw contest, but that doesn't mean that other players should sacrifice sound basics to become trick shot artists with no solid game.
I agree that muay thai kicks are not terribly quick, but I'm talking about JKD. There are fewer parts to a JKD hook kick than a tae kwon do round house kick.
> How many fights I have been in is irrelevant to the discussion.
Maybe. After having been in a few nasty ones, my attitude
about them changed. A strange thing happened in my last
one -- I basically took shots for a while because I didn't
want to hurt anyone. I avoided the throat and eyes as
targets, although I could have easily hit them.
> I also think that learning to kick to the legs and groin is a
> far more useful lesson than kicking to the body when said
> kicks can be caught or if the groin or leg of the kicker
> is a legitimate target.
Well, I had no problem kicking to the groin when I had to.
In pulling off a groin kick in a real fight, getting the
timing and distancing correct is harder than the targeting.
With regard to groin shots, the salient point has been made
many times by sport proponents, and is made by Renzo Gracie
in his recent jujitsu book: in sport, you learn how to apply
sport technique well against skilled opponents. In TMA,
you practice "deadly" technique in a non-realistic way and
so are less likely to be able to pull off the technique for
real. I was able to pull of the groin kick for real by simply
adjusting the target.
So, I have to ask: do you practice your groin attacks
with full power?
> My point is that while tae kwon do MAY excel at high and
> middle kicking, those skills I feel are less fundamental
> to overall fighting success than credible punching skills
> (or grappling, clinching, low line kicking, etc.).
In a theoretical sense, this may often be true. However,
reality creeps in here somewhere. To actually get good
at punching to the face, you need to be practice at moderate
to full power. This causes brain damage. Low-line kicking
practiced at full power will cause real damage to your legs
and knees unless you build up to it slowly and methodically
from a young age -- and are lucky enough to avoid stray knee
shots. I have had surgery on both my knees and, let me tell
you, it sucks.
So, what is you contingency plan for the case where your
opponent loses a testicle due to a groin shot, or an eye
due to Lee's finger jab?
I like to think I have the sense not to seriously injure anyone without an ethical reason; a reason which could hopefully be backed up in court.
Kicking to the groin can be fairly well simulated in sparring by kicking to the inner thigh. This is a safe target and the awareness gained by defending against kicks to the thigh is not terribly different from that needed to effectively recognize groin kicks. A lot of strong fighting traditions spar safely with longevity. In thai fighting camps, just for example, they spar lightly most of the time to avoid injury so that they can make their living in the ring. I am far from being a pro, but I too wish to avoid injury and chronic maladies. Most of my sparring is half power. I have competed in boxing before as an amateur, but I new that there were risks that I wanted to avoid. I think that boxing can and should be sparred with the utmost safety in mind; furthermore I think that the training would still be beneficial. There is also, I think, a large difference between learning how to take a punch and abusing your body.
I too think the TMA excuse of "techniques being too deadly" is weak, but that sounds exactly like tae kwon do's anti-head punching and low kicking rhetoric sounds like to me. These are techniques which can be practiced safely (even finger jabs can be practiced safely with the right equipment). Besides, is being kicked in the head any better than being punched in the head? Sure, it is harder to kick to the head and occurs less frequently (which coincidentally is a corner stone of my argument) but the extra force generated by a kick might in the long run be more dangerous. Also, tae kwon do also seems to be a "young mans'" game in that all that jumping, low stance work, and flirtation with leg hyper-extension is not good for a martial artist's longevity. If safety in training is your main concern, I have to say that from your stories you were injured far more in your tae kwon do training than I was in my boxing and JKD training combined.
> like to think I have the sense not to seriously injure anyone
> without an ethical reason; a reason which could hopefully be
> backed up in court.
Well, since we're heavily focused on the "most fights" scenario
for determining training efficacy, one can safely say that "most
fights" are connected with one or both parties being a little too
macho, drunk, or both. In this case, its best to just grow up
and stay out of fights (this advice has the potential for
widespread application IMO).
Fights which are "true self defence" often involve weapons and/or
multiple attackers. I defer discussion to Renzo Gracie's book
again as it has one the most accurate characterizations of "real
fighting" that I've seen in print. Its a fair reflection of
my experience.
> Kicking to the groin can be fairly well simulated in sparring
> by kicking to the inner thigh.
It can also be ineffective. I've hit hard to the groin in a
real fight with no effect -- yet seen people completely neutralized
in competition (through a cup) with the same thing. So, if your
attacker really has a lot of adrenaline pumping, his testicles may
be withdrawn and safe. Similarly, your half-power leg kick or
boxing jab to the face will do little to stop the tackle you'll
receive a second later. The ability to retreat from such a
tackle, or to circle behind and apply a hold and/or throw may
be only way to prevail.
> but that sounds exactly like tae kwon do's anti-head punching and
> low kicking rhetoric sounds like to me. These are techniques which
> can be practiced safely (even finger jabs can be practiced safely
> with the right equipment).
But not at full power. I like TKD's sparring rules for what they
are: incomplete but useful for developing many aspects of fighting.
I could pretty much guarantee that given adequate space, I could
kick a good boxer in the pills before he could punch me. Of
course, I have no illusion of actually beating a good boxer --
I once met Bobby Czyz and got the clear impression that he'd
wipe the floor with me if given a few seconds. At least I'd
be able to get in the first shot.
> Also, tae kwon do also seems to be a "young mans'" game in that
> all that jumping,
More of this stuff. I never did any "jumping" ...
> low stance work,
or "low stance work". I do agree that nowadays its more for
young kids than ever.
> I have to say that from your stories you were injured far more
> in your tae kwon do training than I was in my boxing and JKD
> training combined.
Well, the knees were both destroyed by skiing -- a sport more
dangerous and fearsome than all the martial arts put together!
No one is talking about a half power thigh kick stopping a full on wrestler's tackle in a real fight. In fact, a straight line tool would be a better option in my oppinion. A jab does have the ability to stop a grappling attack if performed with the right timing, given the puncher can deliver with adequate power. Circling and side stepping are part of good boxing and should be coupled with said jab. But honestly, I'm not nearly as fond of the jab as the straight lead punch of JKD. It's a different animal in my oppinion.
I honestly don't think there is anything which I personally deem to be useful that tae kwon do gives you that JKD, savate or thai boxing can't. All three give a more complete arsenal for fighting and an understanding of boxing is necessary for each.
> honestly don't think there is anything which I personally deem to be useful
> that tae kwon do gives you that JKD, savate or thai boxing can't.
I know this is your opinion and probably reflects your experience.
It certainly doesn't reflect mine.
WTF TKD has a much larger talent pool (or talent "ceiling", as I have
claimed earlier) than JKD or savate. Judo is the same. For competitive
young people, the continuous challenge is the key to improvement.
My impression is that in a do-everything gym with no real affiliations
or organizational partners, the bar is too low and stagnation may set
in quickly.
There are several organizations for thai boxing, savate and JKD. Also, with the prevalence of cross training, it is not uncommon to train and spar at different schools as well as against other arts. As a JKD man I have sparred against thai boxers, western boxers, a savate player, judo players, shoot wrestlers, tae kwon do players, shotokan stylists, silat practitioners, and brazillian jiujitsu stylists from a variety of regions and countries. Almost any art can be practiced with hardcore competitiveness.
> Almost any art can be practiced with hardcore competitiveness.
I agree. But with WTF TKD, its large number of practitioners and
unity raise the bar significantly. Even if you're the best guy
at your gym, you can always find someone at a tournament or
elsewhere who will walk all over you. This leads to advanced
training camps, recruiting fighters, etc.
Of course, things change. I admit my perspective is somewhat dated.
The idea of crosstraining is much more serious now than it was 10 or
15 years ago.
The phenomenon I allude to could be termed the "isolated school"
problem -- it still exists today. Say you study Shinto-Goju-Kai karate
or Purple-Crane Kung Fu at a small club with a closed circle of mediocre
people. No matter how "perfect" the skill set you practice is, you won't
ever amount to much. You just won't push as hard (on average).
--------------
<begin recollection>
I fondly remember colored belt promotion when schools from all over
the province would test at a central location. We sparred (old style
full-contact) in a very small ring (boxing size or sometime smaller)
against the students from rival schools. The small ring size made
punching and grabbing necessary. These "sessions" often teetered on
the brink of becoming real fights and served as a sort of sadistic
entertainment for the senior instructors. It was a very good bonding
experience for club members.
<end recollection>
Once again, I think you have had a much more positive experience with tae kwon do than the majority of those who have unfortunately seen nothing more than what their McDojo has to offer. What kind of punching are you alluding to? Was it strictly to the body or what? Not trying to start anything; I'm just curious to understand what the environment was like.
V I understand when you say that TKD has a higher ceiling than JKD. But this implies that if you do not do a style that does not have thousands of practitioners you can not meet people of high quality. This is only true if you only train with your small group.
I do not limit my sparring to one style of fighter. Whenever I get the op I spar with someone from another style. This effectivly means I have an unlimited ceiling.
It may be true that at a high level of competition you get to hone your TKD skills. My training buddy sparred with a Muay Thai national champion (In asia) and came off equal at least if not better. Yet my training buddy has only really ever trained with a small group of people.
It really has nothing to do with style (although lets face it some are just plain stupid) or how many students exist in the organisation, instead it is more to do with the individual and how they train. It always comes down to that.
I have yet to spar a good JKD guy and the same goes for TKD. I have yet to even meet one that looked like they could fight at a high level with no rules. I am sure they exist, but this argument about small and large ceilings becomes mute when you see that really most places are simply rubbish.
> Once again, I think you have had a much more positive experience
> with tae kwon do than the majority of those who have unfortunately
> seen nothing more than what their McDojo has to offer.
Sadly, the same will happen to all other disciplines (boxing, KB,
MT, JJ) as they are popularized and economic forces take over.
> What kind of punching are you alluding to? Was it strictly to the
> body or what?
In the full-contact rules, yeah, it was body only. As the ring size
gets smaller, you need to punch and grab more often. It was very
different than WTF sparring proper and gave one various "bad habits"
for actual competition. I don't think I ever fully recovered from
this style of fighting. You see, most of the BBs who were my seniors
were really only trained for point sparring (with the usual point
rules), not full-contact. When you mixed that with WTF rules, strange
and exciting (unique) fighting styles arose. I ended up being the one
of those who tried to import "korean style" fighting to my part of
Canada. Things like the 360 roundhouse and double kick, which they're
teaching to Joe White Belt now, originated in Korea in the early 80s.
None of my seniors could do these kicks. Nobody ever did flashy stuff.
> Not trying to start anything; I'm just curious to understand what
> the environment was like.
Sure. It was exciting and stimulating and very challenging. There
were no real alternatives in those days except boxing, kickboxing
and judo. So, many people who would be cross-training now instead
flocked to TKD. One of our BBs was the best kickboxer in Alberta
(at 160lbs) in the mid 80s and had real trouble getting fights.
In TKD he could "get fights".
Hey, I would just like to add my two cents to this one aswell.
I was picked on alot at school aswell, it all started when i moved from my first school, where all my friends were to another area. The people just had something against me from when moved. Growing up i was confronted many times and just walked away, however there were times when this was not possible, as they would come up to me in large groups (10+) i am just lucky that i am the youngest of 5 boys and that my cousins also went to my school. I would have to say that they saved me from serious injury. If you don't have the back-up i would recommend the library (ahhh, i remember those days well - you may laugh, but i learnt more from the reading i achieved and the chess i played, than i would have if i hung around outside trying to outwit the bullies all of the time. Whilst the headmaster knew what was going on, he never could control it, so that avenue didn't work for me, neither did the parents one (and trust me, if the parents one was going to work for somebody, it would be for my parents, as my dad was 6'7" and 120kg, a big guy who trained with an Australian Judo champion, so yeah, that just grabbed more attention. Looking back, i believe that i should have stood up to them from the start, and never been submissive, as this is when they start to walk all over you and control your school life! I confronted the main bully on one occassion and asked him why he picked on me, his response was 'i don't know, because i can i suppose' How stupid does that look, when you dont even know why you're picking on someone :@)
I study TKD in Australia, and our instructors spends time relating what we do to fighting in the real world, even adapting some techniques for speed and effectiveness. So I think it is not what martial art you study, but a combination of your instructor's teaching's and your willingness to learn.
On the watering down topic, i have noticed in my own dojang that the skill level has been watered down, i attribute alot of it (at my club anyway) to the age and maturiy level of the pupils. I know this because of how much i have improved, both in maturity, stamina, and mental toughness.
Each martial art has a different focus, so comparing them is not always as straight forward as this one is better than that one because it has more punches and low kicks. Boxing is an aggressive sport, whereas TKD is a defensive one, whilst we train hard, we spar to kill each other, we spar to refine our techniques and show control, as it is control and a crisp technique that will cause the greatest harm, if we just went out and belted the crap out of eachother each class, then we wouldnt learn as much from ourselves, the control is important because we can use that to dictate the amount of power we put into a technique, because after all you (well i dont anyway) want to kill every person in every fight, you just want to make sure that the threat is neutralized, using the necessary force, not excessive force. That is why it is important to train with light contact!
This message has been edited by werdna_05 on Jul 22, 2004 10:38 PM
I hope that you are still checking up on this thread you have started.I am not a regular on this forum I was just surfing around Bruce Lee stuff and found your question. You did not say your age. I will assume you are 12 or older. I had the same problem, I could not hit. I could but I didn't. I never was much of a fighter. Many times I was cornered pushed around, elbowed or sholdered in the hallways. It was embarrassing. And only got worse when other up and comeing bullies decided I was an easy mark. I don't know why it all started in the first place. My self esteem was very low. I was afraid to hit because if I did I may loose and everything would become worse for me. And why should I fight I had done nothing wrong. I did finally have enough, and left the school. All by my self but with my parents knowledge. I used a friends address in another town and went to his school the next semester. At the same time I begain studying American Kempo. I a short time I could hit and take a hit. Funny thing once I learn that I could fight, fights never came my way again.
Something shows when you have confidence in yourself bullies can see it and will not mess with you and if they are dumb enough to try, they will discover that you can hit! Or maybe not hit but, make them look like fools. Others may seem to stand in your way. But, you are the only one that holds you back. Make a move. Get away from the whatever the problem is. This is not running away this is repositioning. Talk to a parent ,councelor anyone who can help you leave your situation. Get rid of the negitive things around you and build up the good and strenthening things. If you can't afford lessons in the marcial arts ask the instructors if you can work for them to pay. That is what I did for a while. There is alwasy a way. You are never trapped unless you want to be.
Well, theres my long winded sermon.
Good luck my freind!
Cheers
I too was bullied, not so much as physically bullied but emotionally bullied. These guys on my college course would do verbally abuse me, one time they even had the audacity to destroy some of my coursework. One time, I felt so angry, when they left British Nationalist Party leaflets in my bag (I'm an oriental living in a prodominantly caucasion society) , I really felt like walking over and pummeling one of the guys. Ultimately I told myself to remain passive as they haven't physically attacked me or anything, in the end I felt it would be wise to perhaps talk to someone seeing as i was outnumbered by 7-1. However the bullying still persisted, there is only so much the teachers can do! In the end I finished my course and never saw these thugs again, I do regret that they never really learnt their lesson. Though I still have my health and am still in good shape. I think, where ever you go you'll always meet idiots, there's no escaping them.
