so I'm considering joining a JKD school and I'm wondering about the curriculim of the typical school.
I currently hold a blue belt in bjj, and have trained muay thai and boxing for several years. I need a slightly lower-impact workout due to a recent injury, and jkd seems to be the best option for me.
My questions are, can I expect any groundfighting? Or is it mainly standing submission holds and/or small joint manipulation?
How about sparring? Is it half power, or full on? is there even sparring?
What practical techniques, designed for street, can I expect to learn.
Now I'm by no means one of these psuedo-tough-guy, close-minded, ufc-wannabe bjj practitioners, but I have absolutely zero patience for impracticality in martial arts training, and I don't want to waste anyone's time. Or my own.
Now I realize that these are all loaded questions, and teaching methods vary from shool to school, but I'd appreciate any insight to the typical jkd lesson, however vague it may be.
unfortuntately there's tons of interpretations out there as far as what JKD is, so I thought knowing what your objectives were, maybe I could point you to an appropriate place. That's all.
What area are you from again? I could probably point you to some I may know of. Pending on the JKD school, you should expect loads of footwork, focus glove drills (done practically), hitting drills, scenario training, also you'll learn a few tools.
This message has been edited by lssanjose on Mar 21, 2005 3:16 PM
That's kinda what I was hoping for, but with the broad spectrum JKD seems to offer, it's hard to really pin-down a good discription of the training. Sounds like fun really.
I'm in Paradise, a small town east of Chico. I've found a school up here, and have contacted the instructer. It seems like a great place as far as I an tell. Heard of them?
Any real JKD school will first teach you Jun Fan Gung Fu - the base system of JKD. Once you learn the base system, you start applying the principles such as:
1. Economy of motion - using proper body mechanics in defense and attack as well as longest weapon to closest target.
2. Centerline Theory - shortest distance between two points is a straight line
3. Bai Jong stance
4. Proper footwork - step & slide, slide & step, triangle step, push shuffle, rocker shuffle, pendulum, side step, etc.
5. Being able to adapt to any area of combat regardless if it's in kicking, punching/trapping, or grappling range.
6. Principle of intercepting an attack with an attack of your own. Then straight blasting that could end it or end in a finishing move like knees, elbows, a head butt, a choke, a lock, etc.
7. Proper distancing
8. Not being boxed in with any one way or approach of martial arts. You're free to go out and research what works for you and apply it to the base art of Jun Fan Gung Fu.
9. Keep moving at all times and keep circling the hands to keep the opponent on edge
10. Using broken rythm so the opponent cannot time your attack or see it coming before it happens.
11. Using forward pressure on the opponent once the straight blast is applied so you can dictate the fight more than he can.
there are plenty more....that's just some of them. Once you learn these principles and start using them as a base when you start going out and seeing what techniques from different arts work for you, you are starting to find your own JKD.
Take those principles and apply them and then you have JKD. JKD cannot have a base system, or else it wouldnt be JKD. Bruce Lee's feelings on JKD was for it to be a form of self-expression based on those principles. Use what works for you. If Jun Fan Gung Fu says you use a front snap kick at a certain time but you can do some crazy sliding scissor kick and that works out better for you, by all means do that(yes..some exaggeration here but you get the idea).
"there are plenty more....that's just some of them. Once you learn these principles and start using them as a base when you start going out and seeing what techniques from different arts work for you, you are starting to find your own JKD."
I agree with these principles for the most part, but they contradict what you said at the beginning. I feel that the principles you stated ARE the base of JKD, not JFGF. There are only 2 of your principles listed that i disagree with: number 3, which denotes a certain stance; and number 8, i agree with the first sentence, but then you turn right around and say that JKD has a base system, WTF Mate?
Please understand that this is all in my humble opinion based on only what I've read and gathered on my own, to me it seems that some of your ideas you listed that i disagree with may be your very own Jeet Kune Do and crept its way onto here, no worries
Prince, JKD is very much an art and science. It isn't anything really ambiguous. Where are you located? Maybe we can find you an instructor in your area.
JKD Prince - if JKD didn't have a base system, Bruce Lee would not have anything to teach his students because you could argue he was teaching his own ideas instead of letting them find themselves. When you start out giving someone piano lessons, you don't take the student into a room with a piano when they have never seen one to begin with, tell them to sit down and express themselves. They have to learn the technical tools...the way to place their hands, the way to sit, how to interpret music on a piece of paper to be able to coordinate their hands to play what they read, how to compose, etc. After they have played other music pieces by other composers and learned to listen to things like other styles, then they can learn to put it all together to compose their own music....their own style and interpretation. Same with art. You give someone a pallet with a lot of colors before they can even begin to paint. You can't simply give them a canvas. They need paint and a brush first. Martial arts is no different. You can take any free fighting art and if you're new to it, you have to learn to use tools before you can express yourself. Jun Fan Gung Fu is the base system for JKD. JKD is indeed self expression but you need to learn the foundation before you can go off and paint your own picture so to speak. JKD had a beginning. The first step to learning any martial art is learning the basics. Then you start learning other techniques outside of the basics to see what works for you. Then you finally discard the techniques you find don't work for you. But you need to add before you can take away. You can't simply descard anything without first having something to descard. In any case...the bi jong stance is the stance of JKD. Bruce found this neutral stance to be the best stance from springing an attack or defending yourself in any way...it's perfectly balanced with your strong side forward...bringing back your weak hand to the rear for more power and thus giving you two strong sides rather than just one. This also gives your body less of an area for a target to get with. Raising the back heel for extra spring in retreat and advancement of footwork, etc. If you want to argue the matter, you can take it up with the man Bruce worked with for close to 10 years...Dan Inosanto: the man that told me all this way necessary to learning Bruce's JKD.
I kind of had to know all this because I myself am a certified instructor in Jeet Kune Do.
This message has been edited by Lenmaster on May 31, 2005 2:57 AM
If you're instructor then today is my lucky day! It excites me to be able to find out views i have that are wrong from someone who knows what they're talking about, although i still have some issues. You don't teach an aspiring pianist only how to play one genre of music just as you shouldn't teach an upcoming JKD practitioner only 1 base system. I do see what you are saying about needing basic skills but, in my post i was already assuming they were there, i guess i shouldn't have. To me, the art example would be more accurate, you give them the colors and the brush, not half of the idea that is supposed to be their own, you dont say, you can only paint something that would fall into abstract art, or portrait or whatever, you give them their brush and colors and let them do what they can.
Again, to me, in my own opinion, there shouldn't be JKD "Instructors" since JKD isn't a "style." They should be considered guides, helpers, but instructors makes it like any other martial art. Also, again i would like to say that im very sorry if you guys get frustrated with me for being so...whatever i am...im afraid im flirting with ignorance but this is because of what my perception of JKD has been for a few years.
Back to having the basics, Jun Fan Gung Fu was one of Bruce Lee's base systems that he used for JKD. He had many different arts under his belt before his idea of JKD came about. Back to the painting example, you give a painter many colors, not just one. It seems to me that training in several different arts and doing the JKD thing on your own would give you the best end result i.e. painting with many colors gives you a better painting than one in shades of gray. By on your own, i simply mean not in a school, you'd have to spar some grapple some, etc. to find out what works n all that and how you are going to express yourself.
Lastly, in response to the stance issue. Suppose you ahve a bad knee or a gimp or something in one of your legs, then you're going to need a new stance. I don't see how there can be one great stance for everyone if there can't be one great style for everyone. I'm going to stop now so this isn't WAY ridiculously long.
I appreciate the feedback im getting and again, im trying not to come off arrogant or being a jerk or anything.
Prince
Im from southeastern ohio, no instructors of JKD close by that i know of.
This message has been edited by JKDPrince on May 31, 2005 9:39 PM This message has been edited by JKDPrince on May 31, 2005 9:37 PM
JKD Prince's words in quotes. My answers are underneath.
"It excites me to be able to find out views i have that are wrong from someone who knows what they're talking about, although i still have some issues. You don't teach an aspiring pianist only how to play one genre of music just as you shouldn't teach an upcoming JKD practitioner only 1 base system."
You start off saying how excited you are to talk to a JKD instructor. You say that you will be able to find out views you are wrong about to learn from someone who knows what they are talking about. Then you go off telling me what I am saying is wrong concerning the pianist and JKD practicioner example. You sure you have the right attitude to learn if you are in such a rush to be the teacher? First off, you can teach an aspiring pianist to play only one genre of music. I know countless pianists that are just classical pianists and that's it. They are amazing musicians, and they don't have to learn every style of music to be a pianist, no more than you don't have to learn every style of martial arts to be a martial artist. This was a poor conclusion on your part. And you should only teach any martial artist, even JKD men and women only one base system. Too many styles, too soon will confuse the aspiring martial artist. Even JKD had it's roots in traditional martial arts....look at Wing Chun for example.
"I do see what you are saying about needing basic skills but, in my post i was already assuming they were there, i guess i shouldn't have."
You should never assume anything. Assumptions can be dangerous.
"To me, the art example would be more accurate, you give them the colors and the brush, not half of the idea that is supposed to be their own, you dont say, you can only paint something that would fall into abstract art, or portrait or whatever, you give them their brush and colors and let them do what they can."
The brush and the colors represent the basics of JKD in my example. You can't paint anything without tools. And you can't express yourself properly in martial arts either without them.
"Again, to me, in my own opinion, there shouldn't be JKD "Instructors" since JKD isn't a "style." They should be considered guides, helpers, but instructors makes it like any other martial art."
Hmmmmm. Too bad you couldn't argue Bruce Lee's ideas with Bruce Lee himself. He started that art and he certified three instructors in his lifetime. I guess Bruce Lee didn't know what he was doing huh? There is a difference between traditional martial art teachers and JKD teachers. Traditional martial arts teachers teach you to look and move like them to a T. JKD instructors teach you the basic moves in the beginning so you can branch off and create your own expression with the tools the instructor gives you and the tools you get from your own research into other arts AFTER you have the basics.
"Also, again i would like to say that im very sorry if you guys get frustrated with me for being so...whatever i am...im afraid im flirting with ignorance but this is because of what my perception of JKD has been for a few years."
Reading a few books, watching a documentary or a movie on Bruce Lee does not automatically make you an authority on the subject. Tons of ordinary people hear about JKD or Bruce Lee all the time from all over. It's different when you have a person who actually seeks out an instructor from Bruce Lee's lineage and gets taught and over years of training, understands the art and teaches it to others. If you think you're being ignorant....well....asking questions is not ignorant. Asking questions and then telling other people that their answers are wrong is. By telling someone that their answer is wrong is saying without saying directly that you already possess the answer to the question at hand. If that is the case, a question should not be asked since there is nothing about what you ask that you already do not know.
"Back to having the basics, Jun Fan Gung Fu was one of Bruce Lee's base systems that he used for JKD. He had many different arts under his belt before his idea of JKD came about."
Wrong. Jun Fan WAS Bruce Lee's base system for JKD. There was no other base system. As far as the other arts are concerned, he learned most of the time bits and pieces of the other arts from the 2nd, third, or 4th man down in the system since the master wouldn't teach him, knowing full well his intention of "using techniques" rather than embracing the entire art and carrying it on all by itself. He didn't master the entire Wing Chun system but he got pretty far with it. All the arts he learned were basically bits and pieces with strong emphasis and knowledge in certain arts over others.
"Back to the painting example, you give a painter many colors, not just one."
In the same respect, I don't teach people just how to stand. I teach them how to hit and move as well.
"It seems to me that training in several different arts and doing the JKD thing on your own would give you the best end result i.e. painting with many colors gives you a better painting than one in shades of gray."
You can only paint with one color at a time. Even in combining colors, it still becomes "another color". Training in several different arts is encouraged after you understand and train in the basics. Every martial art has different basics depending upon a lot of issues: time the art developed, the situation the art was in while it was in it's development, the point of the art, the direction of the art, the fighting emphasis range of the art, etc. And even in combining arts, yes....good idea BUT,....you simply don't add arts for the sake of adding something. There has to be an intellectual reason and purpose for adding something. It has to fit what you are doing or help augment or streamline a technique, make what you are already doing more devestating, faster, powerful, more direct, etc. and every technique will have it's place depending upon the circumstances of the fight: the ground, the kind of person you are fighting, how big is he, is he fast, slow? Does he have friends? Are you stuck in an elevator? Are you in a parking lot? All these things have to be taken into consideration.
"By on your own, i simply mean not in a school, you'd have to spar some grapple some, etc. to find out what works n all that and how you are going to express yourself."
You aren't supposed to limit yourself. Spar people that are in a martial arts school. But also spar people that aren't in a martial art school. Expression of yourself results in learning to adapt instantly and properly to as many different kind of fighters and styles as possible.
"Lastly, in response to the stance issue. Suppose you ahve a bad knee or a gimp or something in one of your legs, then you're going to need a new stance. I don't see how there can be one great stance for everyone if there can't be one great style for everyone. I'm going to stop now so this isn't WAY ridiculously long."
If you have a bad knee, you shouldn't be fighting LOL. Stay home and keep out of trouble. You don't understand how there can be one great stance for everyone because you don't understand the Bi-jong stance. You are still looking at things as far as styles and stances, etc. Bruce said himself "I do not believe in styles anymore. I don't believe in a Chinese way of fighting, or a Japanese way of fighting, or whatever way of fighting. Because unless we have three arms and four legs, we will have a different form of fighting. But basically we only have two arms and two feet. So the question comes up....how can we use what we have to the maximum? In terms of path...there is straight line, round line, curved line,....in some circumstances that may be slow, but in others it may not be". When you look at the human body and how it is made....you learn after a certain while there is way to punch that has more power and speed than other methods under a specific circumstance. Same with kicking, keeping yourself well covered, being able to spring forward or move back with speed and ease, while maintaining perfect balance at all times. The Bi-jong stance understands the way the human body is made and it utilizes the perfect way of standing for a fully functional human being. In other words....using physics terms.....it's the most scientific of all martial art stances because it utilizes the best the body can show in terms of mobility, striking, retreating, advancing, shooting (grappling), and overall balance.
Thank you for your questions. I hope this helps clear up some confusion.
This message has been edited by Lenmaster on Jun 1, 2005 1:56 AM This message has been edited by Lenmaster on Jun 1, 2005 1:55 AM This message has been edited by Lenmaster on Jun 1, 2005 1:52 AM
Im sorry for coming off as though i were telling you were wrong, i did NOT mean that. I just wanted you to know why i thought what i did, adn THATS what i was posting. I figured if you knew just what i was thinking and not why, we might not commuinicate effciently. Well, I don't have time to write another lengthy response right now, i just felt that was worth getting out there now.
You just came off sounding arrogant at first. You have to consider this is a message board on a computer and you can never express your emotions or intentions as easily in type alone. There are a lot of people that come on the computer saying this and that, thinking they know everything. It appears it was just a miscommunication. Don't worry about it.
I recommend me I teach lots of classical Wing Chun Gung Fu as well as Bruce's Seattle and Oakland periods Gung-Fu. I also know alot of kali, escrima, muay thai, silat, and BJJ that I can also teach from my Concepts background.
Keep Blasting!
Sifu Lamar M. Davis II
Hardcore Jeet Kune Do Chinese Gung Fu Association http://www.HardcoreJKD.com
sifu@HardcoreJKD.com
(205) 274-9011
You're trying to advertize on a board that probably has no more than 7 members that post once a week and that probably live hundreds of miles apart? lol And no offense but I seriously doubt anyone's gonna relocate to another state just to take Jeet Kune Do.
I teach lots of classical Wing Chun Gung Fu as well as Bruce's Seattle and Oakland periods Gung-Fu. I also know alot of kali, escrima, muay thai, silat, and BJJ that I can also teach from my Concepts background.